- Moderator
- #281
Why haven't you sued Rob Simmons then?
Simmons just formed in August: http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSearchViewPDF.aspx
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Illegal C420 at Nationals
- Thread starter VWAP
- Start date
Simmons just formed in August: http://corp.sec.state.ma.us/CorpWeb/CorpSearch/CorpSearchViewPDF.aspx
fastyacht
Super Anarchist
- 12,928
- 2,600
That's an absolutely dreadful situation. The class association really needs to get proactive on this in my opinion.
martin 'hoff
Super Anarchist
frostbit
Anarchist
This is starting to sound somewhat personal. How are you involved in this situation? Did you purchase a boat? Are you in the industry?
Yes, we own a boat, I’ve explained the entire situation earlier in the thread. As a matter of fact you also sent me a few PMs asking about our situation.
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frostbit
Anarchist
- Moderator
- #288
Quit bitching and call a lawyer then.
Plenty of remedies for the facts above, if proved true. Bks can be set aside, corp veils can be pierced, assets can be reached. Whining on the internet may make you feel slightly better, but you've done that. Now what?
Plenty of remedies for the facts above, if proved true. Bks can be set aside, corp veils can be pierced, assets can be reached. Whining on the internet may make you feel slightly better, but you've done that. Now what?
- Moderator
- #289
That's why you file a complaint - so you can discover those facts with the power of a subpoena. You ain't gonna find the answer here.
Because I am not rich and don’t have the money for a lawyer in Massachusetts. How hard is this to understand? $10k for a new boat was doable for our kids. Another $10K within a few months for a replacement boat has drained the bank. You think lawyers are free or what?
We are not rich people and we trusted these people to be honest. So all I’ve got is to tell everyone in earshot: Dont buy from Rob Simmons and don’t do business with Matt Wake.
fastyacht
Super Anarchist
- 12,928
- 2,600
Is there any way to make contact with other people who also lost on this and pool resources for a legal fight?
Wess
Super Anarchist
Yea, that is what I was wondering as well. Heard rumor early on that was planned. Basically a larger group of many buyers all going after the builder, seller and class association. Kinda surprised it didn't happen (yet?)?
Gouvernail
Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
Collecting a government applied judgement is going to be nearly impossible.
The most likely reason for the provision of some form of compensation is the builder’s need to have good Will in the sailing community.....
The business or individual someday wants to sell more product to the sailing community.
in the meantime, the people who have the “illegal” boats would do well to
find one another and look for solutions.
example: a dozen might be able to pool their almost new toys and sell them to a local sailing school whose use does not include regatta competition in class events
Such a deal may allow the owners to sell for thousands $$$ more than selling the boats as individuals to a depressed used boat market.
The most likely reason for the provision of some form of compensation is the builder’s need to have good Will in the sailing community.....
The business or individual someday wants to sell more product to the sailing community.
in the meantime, the people who have the “illegal” boats would do well to
find one another and look for solutions.
example: a dozen might be able to pool their almost new toys and sell them to a local sailing school whose use does not include regatta competition in class events
Such a deal may allow the owners to sell for thousands $$$ more than selling the boats as individuals to a depressed used boat market.
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Board skiff
Super Anarchist
- 1,606
- 672
Isn’t the cheaper, easier and more pragmatic solution to get the C420 rules changed to allow infusion and then grandfather the existing boats in?
No, that isn't cheaper or easier or more pragmatic. That would obsolete a huge number of the existing boats already out in the wild and being actively raced, because these resin infused boats are lighter and stiffer in some conditions than their predecessor and other builder's boats. This change in manufacturing was done to gain a competitive advantage and build brand preference over the other available choices (LP, Zim) -- - and it's illegal. While everyone can have some empathy for those who got stuck with boats they thought were legal (much like people who bought diesel VWs thought they were buying clean diesel, low pollution vehicles- only to find out they had been lied to and their vehicles were illegal), its not right to screw all the existing owners and programs still using legal boats. Some may be old nags by comparison, but they can still be reasonably competitive, but not against the resin infused 'cheater' boats.
frostbit
Anarchist
The resin infused boats are not lighter and there has been zero testing to determine the boats' relative performance characteristics. Having said that, they are clearly violating class rules and they should never have been built. Would have been nice if there was a measurement and cure route, but that pathway has been closed.
The class has already grandfathered other builders' "illegal" design changes in order to keep the class whole. The class will NOT willingly accept the PS2000 boats in. However, it does seem possible, maybe even likely, that, given the class's lack of controls and allowances made to other builders, a court of law might view the class measurer's ruling as a capricious decision and require a process to be followed that could reinstate the boats.
Could get interesting.
Board skiff
Super Anarchist
- 1,606
- 672
Post 279 states the infused boats are not lighter. I doubt that they are stiffer to the extent that all others are obsoleted, and I doubt the standard of sailing within the fleet is high enough to notice the difference. Anyay, wouldn’t you rather have someone to race against than not?
If it matters that much, just make them carry 5kg or lead to level things up a bit, but heavens sake let the kids race!
If it matters that much, just make them carry 5kg or lead to level things up a bit, but heavens sake let the kids race!
While Frostbit's 6 resin infused boats are not lighter, apparently there are others that were produced that are lighter. In fact, not all the resin infused boat were even manufactured consistently - - some have the extra support material around the centerboard trunk, and others don't. And that is just what is externally visible. Who knows what is going on inside these boats. There isn't any way to know but to cut into them and find out. And the manufacturer and distributor have been not been forthcoming with an honest mea culpa with documentation about what was changed, when it was changed, and how. They wouldn't even tell the class how many boats were affected, which hull numbers, and who they were sold to. This was either deliberate or incredibly sloppy record keeping. My guess is deliberate. As for testing in order to determine the performance characteristics of these boats versus the other ~8000 hand-layer fiberglass boats - -its correct that this hasn't been done. But talking to boat designers and boat builders, those I've spoken to have said a resin infusion production method would allow less resin to be used consistently, unit to unit, and a stiffer end product - 2 key reasons that the technology has been adopted by many higher-end boats. There is no way to really know unless extensive testing was actually performed, and all the boats meticulously inspected -- which is highly unlikely given the current situation. Instead, this black-eye on the class is just going to be the elephant in the room for a long while.
