Illegal C420 at Nationals

[fastyacht]

 SNIP   There isn't any way to know but to cut into them and find out.  SNIP

...AND, that has been true since the beginning of GRP and before! In every class! Heck, I had a centerboard from a one design that when it came apart, it literally looked like it was held togehter with bubble gum. No, it was PL259. Even worse

Weigh the bastards. Apply penalty (6 sec / mile ---- just kidding) let them sail.

Or, go to court as a class action, and what? Get Matt to sell his house. Then what? Get your money back? IF possible wold be nice. But is this feasible?

Someone has to do some calculus (but as a group outside this public forum) to find the best way forward.

It does seem like a 10 kg corrector weight in the bow or 5 kg at bow and 5 kg at transom would make the boats slower than the existing...But then the owner's of these boats would feel cheated yet again. Which is why undwertandably they wanty a fix.

Oh how about Matt Wake has to take them back, rip the decks off and replace with a class legal deck?

 

[fastyacht]

BTW, Anyone notice how many brand new users are on this thread? Methinks the C420 builders have a few sock puppets.... 

...and a lot of other owners of the new C420 want to wade in without public exposure

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Small claims court depending on location 

Small claims court limits are typically 5000-7500 per claim.  

 

[MR.CLEAN]

a court of law might view the class measurer's ruling as a capricious decision

no

 

[martin 'hoff]

> a court of law might view the class measurer's ruling as a capricious decision

no

I'm curious. Tell us more. 

 

[Ncik]

Clearly the worst possible outcome has transpired. Dealer bust, noone restituted. It's too late to go the SENSIBLE route and work with the class and dealer to figure out how to allow the boats to sail.

Those banging on about weight need to get a clue and stop repeating such nonsense. If the boats are weighed at every major regatta and shown to be above minimum weight, then this argument is dead. If the class isn't weighing boats regularly, then the idea that the class is one-design is dead.

 

[VWAP]

Small claims court limits are typically 5000-7500 per claim.  

10,000 in Delaware  $5,000 is better than $0

 

[JimC]

If it matters that much, just make them carry 5kg or lead to level things up a bit, but heavens sake let the kids race!

That presupposes the owners of all the 'legal' boats would agree, which might well be unlikely. Helicopter parents and all that. Gouv is right, the best way to salvage money out of the boats will be for the owners to get together and sell them as batches to institutions who have no need for certificates. They'll take a nasty loss, but not as big as it would have been otherwise. If any of the remaining builders have adequate resources they might shift some boats and get some kudos by taking the illegal ones in as tradeins, refurbishing and shipping to institutions. It might be nice for the CA to look into facilitating something like that, after all the boats did have plaques....

 

[frostbit]

That presupposes the owners of all the 'legal' boats would agree, which might well be unlikely. Helicopter parents and all that. Gouv is right, the best way to salvage money out of the boats will be for the owners to get together and sell them as batches to institutions who have no need for certificates. They'll take a nasty loss, but not as big as it would have been otherwise. If any of the remaining builders have adequate resources they might shift some boats and get some kudos by taking the illegal ones in as tradeins, refurbishing and shipping to institutions. It might be nice for the CA to look into facilitating something like that, after all the boats did have plaques....

At the moment there is one builder, Zim.  LP may have boats sometime next spring. Good news is that there is a non-c420 market for almost C420s.  Bad news is that the boats are not going to trade close to their purchase price. 

 

[frostbit]

no

Not a lawyer, and I’m sure my language is all wrong and filled with layman wishful thinking, but using the right legal arguments, do you see a potential path there?

 

[Sailfasss]

Not a lawyer, and I’m sure my language is all wrong and filled with layman wishful thinking, but using the right legal arguments, do you see a potential path there?

Implied warranty would be the easiest case. With this you wouldn’t have to prove it was deliberate. Unfortunately I don’t think he has much left to take.  I guess we could all have fractional ownership of his Fareast. 

 

[frostbit]

Implied warranty would be the easiest case. With this you wouldn’t have to prove it was deliberate. Unfortunately I don’t think he has much left to take.  I guess we could all have fractional ownership of his Fareast. 

In China. Yes, that will definitely happen... 

 

[frostbit]

In China. Yes, that will definitely happen... 

my ask from Mr. Clean was related to his thoughts on the class's exposure to legal decision forcing them to accept these boats. 

 

[Sailfasss]

In China. Yes, that will definitely happen... 

It would be Sturgis that’s held accountable.  With Implied Warranty the dealer/retailer/distributor are all on the hook.     

 

[JimC]

Disclaimer of complete lack of legal expertise must be made, but it seems to me that if you wanted to put the CA on the hook you would have to demonstrate that they have been routinely ignoring illegal boats. That sounds very expensive to me, even if its true at all, and in my ignorance i would expect the legal effort to cost many times more than was ever lost on the boats.

 

[frostbit]

Disclaimer of complete lack of legal expertise must be made, but it seems to me that if you wanted to put the CA on the hook you would have to demonstrate that they have been routinely ignoring illegal boats. That sounds very expensive to me, even if its true at all, and in my ignorance i would expect the legal effort to cost many times more than was ever lost on the boats.

There is a strong evidence that every single builder has violated the class rules and the class has never flagged any of those violation. Until now. 

 

[frostbit]

There is a strong evidence that every single builder has violated the class rules and the class has never flagged any of those violation. Until now. 

I should add that I don't believe the class should go back and throw a flag on any past violations.  However, they really need to put a strong governance framework in place if a repeat of this summer's shit show is to be avoided. 

 

[Sailfasss]

I should add that I don't believe the class should go back and throw a flag on any past violations.  However, they really need to put a strong governance framework in place if a repeat of this summer's shit show is to be avoided. 

I agree and makes you wonder if there’s more to the story.  It seems like from the beginning they targeted the Matt (Fake) Wake boats. From the fact it happened at a big national event to the fact we are hearing more and more rumors about Sturgis and unhappy customers. I wonder if he crossed someone. Or it could just be my conspiracy side over analyzing the situation. haha

 

[fastyacht]

It really is an outrageous situation.

Think about it.

To go sailing-just sailing--or say Portsmouth racing--nobody needs a new boat. You just go get a boat. Any old boat.

But people spent actual money on the order of 10k *specifically* so that they could participate in what to them was a worthy pursuit--nationals in a one design class which they felt was worth the money. So they ponied jup the 10k and bought boats which were claimed to be suitable and approved. Only they are not.

Now what? "Just go sailing?"  Hardly. You are still out about 8grand....beyond what "just go sailing" a dinghy actually costs (500 bucks for the boat and 1500 bucks to get it sorted).

 

[martin 'hoff]

I agree and makes you wonder if there’s more to the story.  It seems like from the beginning they targeted the Matt (Fake) Wake boats. From the fact it happened at a big national event to the fact we are hearing more and more rumors about Sturgis and unhappy customers. I wonder if he crossed someone. Or it could just be my conspiracy side over analyzing the situation. haha

When many participants in the game bend the rules gently in small increments, and someone comes and just outright breaks them, everything goes to shit. Happens often enough that you don't need a conspiracy, it's a frequent social dynamic, and it's very hard to put the genie back into the bottle.

Folks have mentioned that mast/rigs aren't compatible across C420 from different manufacturers. If that is true, that's plenty of 'drift' in the spec, which should be tightened. Which in turn means that some boats currently class legal would have to be grandfathered unto the new tighter regime. Has the class said anything about this?