Illegal C420 at Nationals

frostbit

Anarchist
When many participants in the game bend the rules gently in small increments, and someone comes and just outright breaks them, everything goes to shit. Happens often enough that you don't need a conspiracy, it's a frequent social dynamic, and it's very hard to put the genie back into the bottle.

Folks have mentioned that mast/rigs aren't compatible across C420 from different manufacturers. If that is true, that's plenty of 'drift' in the spec, which should be tightened. Which in turn means that some boats currently class legal would have to be grandfathered unto the new tighter regime. Has the class said anything about this?
The class has stated that the boats they have now reviewed are class legal. Essentially, they grandfathered all the non-complying boats in without using "grandfathering" language. If you look at the latest boats from ZIM, LP, and the previous batch of actual C420s from PS2000, you will notice very significant design differences that are easy to see. Latest ZIMs do not have all the same shroud lengths as LPs, PS2000s, and prior Zims. The masts themselves fit. 

 

martin 'hoff

Super Anarchist
2,215
1,077
Miami
The class has stated that the boats they have now reviewed are class legal. Essentially, they grandfathered all the non-complying boats in without using "grandfathering" language. If you look at the latest boats from ZIM, LP, and the previous batch of actual C420s from PS2000, you will notice very significant design differences that are easy to see. Latest ZIMs do not have all the same shroud lengths as LPs, PS2000s, and prior Zims. The masts themselves fit. 
Yeah that's what I was alluding to. This needs to be made explicit IMHO, and tightened going forward...

 
...AND, that has been true since the beginning of GRP and before! In every class! Heck, I had a centerboard from a one design that when it came apart, it literally looked like it was held togehter with bubble gum. No, it was PL259. Even worse:p

Weigh the bastards. Apply penalty (6 sec / mile ---- just kidding) let them sail.

Or, go to court as a class action, and what? Get Matt to sell his house. Then what? Get your money back? IF possible wold be nice. But is this feasible?

Someone has to do some calculus (but as a group outside this public forum) to find the best way forward.

It does seem like a 10 kg corrector weight in the bow or 5 kg at bow and 5 kg at transom would make the boats slower than the existing...But then the owner's of these boats would feel cheated yet again. Which is why undwertandably they wanty a fix.

Oh how about Matt Wake has to take them back, rip the decks off and replace with a class legal deck?
if he set his shit up properly his house won't be touchable for a non-criminal case. I think. Going back to business law in 2011 here...

 

Sailfasss

New member
49
15
Mid west
if he set his shit up properly his house won't be touchable for a non-criminal case. I think. Going back to business law in 2011 here...
You are absolutely correct.  I have to wonder what he’s going to do for a career now.  Moving forward how many people would do business with him as a vendor or customer in the sailing industry. 

 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
46,908
4,904
Not here
if he set his shit up properly his house won't be touchable for a non-criminal case. I think. Going back to business law in 2011 here...
it's not about how you set up your business.  It's about how you actually do things.  If you run your business like a business, you're protected, especially if you've actually dissolved the company or filed for bankruptcy.  If you ran it like a sloppy fuck, it's quite common to see the 'corporate veil' be pierced.  A smart guy often has a family trust own his house though.

 
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Dave Clark

Anarchist
914
872
Rhode Island
3 years later.....what happened out of all that mess? Did LP ever build a C420 again?
You know it's going poorly for your brand when you get other people's company-killing scandals misattributed to you. This C420 situation was a PS2000 issue, not an LP issue. PS2000 was owned by Sturgis, which needed to go chapter 11 and was sold for parts to handle the blowback.

LP on the other hand doesn't even list the 420 on their website. They asked Fulcrum to build them for them a few years back. We offered to do so in exchange for the build rights to the Sunfish. They didn't love that, but I swear more boats would have got to market if that had happened.

Side note, I'm pretty sure we're building more Rockets annually than LP is making Sunfish, so we ended up a few years later serving the same market with a better boat.

Good thing we don't have any ideas on how to make something better than a C420....

DRC
 

bsavery

New member
27
24
Something like sturdier M15 with a replaceable rubber bow bumper, replaceable rubber rails at the sheer line, with a false deck and open transom?
Sturdier? It’s a pretty solid hull already
Bow bumper - sure. But melges offers a glued on one for $200 (not cheap)
Rubber rails? Again sure
False deck and open transom - pros and cons here debated ad nauseum on the m15 thread

Imo if you want to take something like the m15 and somehow make it cheaper and more scaleable to juniors and ability to add trapeze… that gets interesting. Oh and to do the 420 better you have to make it perform well in low winds on college lakes and rivers…

@Dave Clark was involved already in a project like this with the v-15 which he mentions in other threads why it didn’t work out as intended. But I don’t see how you easily solve the cost issue.
 

H-77

New member
21
17
There have been countless boats built as a "replacement" for the 420 and laser (or proposed to be such by the manufacturer), and it's never happened.

The 420 is dog, but it does one thing really well - and that's being cheap. Cheap because they're cheap to buy new (compared to other sloop-rigged boats of comparable size), cheap because there are thousands of them kicking around as the result of sailing teams upgrading equipment, and cheap because there just isn't a whole lot on the boats to add cost.

I'll be shocked if the 420 ever gets "replaced".

Last I checked, a new 420 is just shy of $12,000, and the M15 starts at about $15,000. That's a considerable chunk of change, and

Still, it's a shame that the defacto "post opti" training boat is still rigged with a symmetrical spinnaker in 2022. There's an unfortunate disconnect between the types of boats that kids usually get to sail (Optis and 420s, mostly) and the fun that sailing has the potential to be.
 

Bill5

Right now
2,920
2,470
Western Canada
There have been countless boats built as a "replacement" for the 420 and laser (or proposed to be such by the manufacturer), and it's never happened.

The 420 is dog, but it does one thing really well - and that's being cheap. Cheap because they're cheap to buy new (compared to other sloop-rigged boats of comparable size), cheap because there are thousands of them kicking around as the result of sailing teams upgrading equipment, and cheap because there just isn't a whole lot on the boats to add cost.

I'll be shocked if the 420 ever gets "replaced".

Last I checked, a new 420 is just shy of $12,000, and the M15 starts at about $15,000. That's a considerable chunk of change, and

Still, it's a shame that the defacto "post opti" training boat is still rigged with a symmetrical spinnaker in 2022. There's an unfortunate disconnect between the types of boats that kids usually get to sail (Optis and 420s, mostly) and the fun that sailing has the potential to be.
In my experience, most kids don’t care what kind of boat they are sailing - they are social animals and get their kicks out of being with other kids. The smiles on the faces of the 12 yr old Opti kids coming off the water is no smaller than the smiles of the 16 year old 420 kids or the 18 year old 29er kids.
(Just edited adding the word Opti)
 
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Roller Skates

Super Anarchist
1,160
108
North
Last I checked, a new 420 is just shy of $12,000, and the M15 starts at about $15,000.
Add in that 420 builders offer multi-boat discounts, where Melges tells you to get bent. Essentially another 20% missing from that conversation. Melges seems to be the ONLY manufacturer that doesn't offer a volume discount.
 


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