I'm a police officer and a swat team member, ask me anything?

[Vgree]

Why would he do that?

And why would anyone care, much less send someone to talk to him?

Your reaction of inviting him inside seems the only really appropriate response. Too bad you were out on the meth call.

Sorry this happened to your friend. Hope he still likes cameras.

Your comments about cops not liking cameras is kinda funny, they are overwhelmingly loved in the job now days, where many officers have issues with them is how they are used against us and how people try and use them as a "gotcha".

When they first started rolling out there was a lot of discussion about body camera policies and how to implement them. The cameras weren't reliable and officers were being disciplined when the camera didn't work. That originally turned some against them.
The other issue is many do not believe officers should be able to review their videos to write their report. This didn't sit well with many cops because we know how lawyers work and the first time an officer put a quote in a report, or stated something that didn't 100% match the video we knew we would be crucified on the stand.
Thankfully most departments allow officers to review their videos for reports.

Another issue that you see regularly is administrations use the body camera to punish officers. OKC PD has a policy that Lieutenants must review at least 3 videos from each officer they supervise per week and any policy violations will result in discipline. Cursing is forbidden in their policy, and I know an officer who muttered "what the f***" under their breath while alone in their patrol car, but the body camera picked it up and they recieved discipline for it.
There are numerous other examples of officers being disciplined for conversations with their buddy when they aren't in the public view.
If we did that to all public professions no one would sign up for them.

I'm a huge supporter of body worn cameras and wouldn't work without one, but there also have to be some reasonable expectations.

 

[Vgree]

Thanks V for the insights. I yearn for the "old days" when the local copper was a member of the community - you could ask him to "have a word" if you had concerns about the company your son was keeping, and a "word" would be had, usually very effectively. I had mates who were coppers like that. But times changed, and coppers were suddenly not part of the community - they were apart, and it seemed they were against the community. There were no mates any more, just offenders or people who were suspected of doing something. Coppers became isolated from the community and mixed only with their colleagues, reinforcing stereotypes.

I reckon it's too late to return to the "old days", but I regret the new model where a copper doesn't have mates in the community who can tip him off to something awry, and vice versa. The modern approach is for a citizen to have no voluntary relations with a copper, and for a copper to reach for the handcuffs (or worse in the USA - a gun) for a burnt out tail light. This is not IMHO an improvement for society.

Your situation in the USA is different - guns everywhere and you have to assume that every interaction can be deadly. In Australia we have none of that bullshit - if a cop pulls you over for speeding, you can get out of your car and go to speak with him/her at his vehicle - and no one will pull a gun.

My last interaction:
Cop: Do you know why I pulled you over?
Me: Probably because I was driving to the Northern Territory speed limit (130 kph)and not the Queensland one (110 kph).
Cop: That's right - do you know what speed you were doing?
Me: Well, it wouldn't have been the full 130 kph because I was still accelerating
Cop: Yeah, well it was 127kph, but I'll write you down to the minimum degree - you're just not allowed to do that speed in Qld.
Me: OK, thanks mate.

I think overall you would be surprised with how times haven't changed as much as you think, many officers are still very involved in their communities. Much of it is perception that the media drives.

If you go look at our community facebook page for the city I work for you will see me, and other officers tagged by citizens when they have concerns. Thats the modern method of "having a word" with someone.

If you read some of my posts above I mention why I believe there is more of a rift between citizens and police than there used to be, but I also don't believe it is as bad as the media makes it out to be.
Most people would be amazed that if you just walk up and say "hi" to the officer you see they will happily chat with you. Ask if your kid can look at their police car, I love to let kids climb into the car and press the siren button. Suggested tips are not to start the conversation about the last speeding ticket you got, or something negative you saw an officer do on TV.

We have those same conversations with people dealing with tickets, we don't point guns at everyone. See one of my posts a few above this one, even at my small department we have taken close to 16k calls this year and somehow managed to not shoot anyone. In my ten years my department has had one shooting.

 

[DA-WOODY]

 

[DA-WOODY]

Vgree... I sooooooo do not envy your job
You MUST Remain Open and Prepared for Anything at Anytime.
Look at this in the Land of GUN Control
Much of interactions could be left over from the last contact.
No idea what the LEO's were expecting on this call......... But Skool Principal .... WTF

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...taskbar&cvid=9aa527e5f1d646cca268f2828b073358

Six dead - including two police officers killed 'execution-style' - at remote Australian property​

Yesterday 8:34 PM

Six people, including two police officers, have been killed in a gunfight at a remote home in Australia's Queensland state.

Constables Rachel McCrow and Matthew Arnold were killed. Pic: Queensland Police© Other
Constables Matthew Arnold, 26 and Rachel McCrow, 29, had called at the property to investigate reports involving a missing person.
But when they approached the entrance, they came under fire from two heavily armed offenders, who were reportedly dressed in camouflage fatigues.
Back-up and air support responded to the ambush, and following a six-hour stand-off, the two suspects, and one other person, were eventually shot dead.
A member of the public - a neighbour who tried to come to the officers' help - was also killed in the initial attack, and two other police officers were taken to hospital.
According to The Australian newspaper, one suffered a bullet graze to the leg and was able to escape the property to raise the alarm, while the fourth fled into bushes to hide from the gunmen.

The newspaper reported a police source as saying that after the two officers were critically injured, one or both of the gunmen then stood over the pair and shot them "execution style where they lay".

Sky News
Two police officers among six killed in Oz shooting
Unmute
0

View on Watch
They said: "A witness reported seeing two people in camouflage stand over them and shoot them again. Then they took their pistols."

Queensland police has not formally revealed the identities of the offenders, but local media said they were former school principal 46-year-old Nathaniel Train, his brother Gareth Train and an unidentified woman.
'Lives cruelly cut short'
Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese described the incident as "terrible and a heartbreaking day for the families and friends of the Queensland Police officers who have lost their lives in the line of duty".
He said: "I pay tribute to them. I pay tribute as well to their surviving fellow officers... In addition, I pay tribute to a neighbour driven by the instinct to help, Alan Dare, who also lost his life in this tragedy.
"Three lives cruelly cut short. This is, indeed, a devastating day for everyone who loved these Australians."
Queensland Police Commissioner Katarina Carroll said the shooting, in Wieambilla, about 300 km (186 miles) northwest of Queensland's capital Brisbane, was the largest loss of life the state police have suffered in one incident in recent times.
She vowed the circumstances surrounding the deaths would be investigated.

 

[Ease the sheet.]

Thanks V for the insights. I yearn for the "old days" when the local copper was a member of the community - you could ask him to "have a word" if you had concerns about the company your son was keeping, and a "word" would be had, usually very effectively. I had mates who were coppers like that. But times changed, and coppers were suddenly not part of the community - they were apart, and it seemed they were against the community. There were no mates any more, just offenders or people who were suspected of doing something. Coppers became isolated from the community and mixed only with their colleagues, reinforcing stereotypes.

I reckon it's too late to return to the "old days", but I regret the new model where a copper doesn't have mates in the community who can tip him off to something awry, and vice versa. The modern approach is for a citizen to have no voluntary relations with a copper, and for a copper to reach for the handcuffs (or worse in the USA - a gun) for a burnt out tail light. This is not IMHO an improvement for society.

Your situation in the USA is different - guns everywhere and you have to assume that every interaction can be deadly. In Australia we have none of that bullshit - if a cop pulls you over for speeding, you can get out of your car and go to speak with him/her at his vehicle - and no one will pull a gun.

My last interaction:
Cop: Do you know why I pulled you over?
Me: Probably because I was driving to the Northern Territory speed limit (130 kph)and not the Queensland one (110 kph).
Cop: That's right - do you know what speed you were doing?
Me: Well, it wouldn't have been the full 130 kph because I was still accelerating
Cop: Yeah, well it was 127kph, but I'll write you down to the minimum degree - you're just not allowed to do that speed in Qld.
Me: OK, thanks mate.

An older uncle grew up in the seedier parts of bayside Melb in the 50's and 60's.

Saturday night saw the locals getting shit faced at the local dance hall. Fights ensured. So the local Sgt decided that if people wanted to fight, they had to fight him.
No matter how long the line was, he never lost a fight.

Over the next week, the Sgt would see a few of his challengers in the street. They and everyone else always addressed him as "Sir".

I don't mind that approach.

 

[Point Break]

An older uncle grew up in the seedier parts of bayside Melb in the 50's and 60's.

Saturday night saw the locals getting shit faced at the local dance hall. Fights ensured. So the local Sgt decided that if people wanted to fight, they had to fight him.
No matter how long the line was, he never lost a fight.

Over the next week, the Sgt would see a few of his challengers in the street. They and everyone else always addressed him as "Sir".

I don't mind that approach.

When I was a lifeguard right out of the.military (1976), one of the beaches I worked for a bit could be kind of a “trouble spot” with some local riff raff and drug deals etc. One was particularly troublesome, harassing teen girls, picking fights in the parking lot, dealing drugs, and generally being a colossal dickhead.

One day he got into a loud argument at the main tower with the Lt (we had lots of coastline which was divided up regionally supervisor-wise amongst a handful of Lt’s who each had a number of beaches).

Now this Lt was a pretty big guy and pretty no nonsense. Not a very talkative or pleasant sort. He asks the guy to step into the station (two stories, guard tower above a very small garage/equipment room, small office and shower/ready room). The guy steps in to continue the confrontation and the Lt closes the door, turns on the showers for a little noise, and provides some “wall to wall counseling” in the shower room. The door opens and the guy leaves in wet clothes with a swollen cheek. The Lt comes out, gets in the Jeep and drives off down the beach. We never saw the guy again.

Those days are gone…..and although “non-judicial punishment” was immediate and often effective……it’s vulnerable to poor judgement in the administration and is probably for the best…….but occasionally I inwardly lament the loss.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

Another issue that you see regularly is administrations use the body camera to punish officers. OKC PD has a policy that Lieutenants must review at least 3 videos from each officer they supervise per week and any policy violations will result in discipline. Cursing is forbidden in their policy, and I know an officer who muttered "what the f***" under their breath while alone in their patrol car, but the body camera picked it up and they recieved discipline for it.

There are numerous other examples of officers being disciplined for conversations with their buddy when they aren't in the public view.

If we did that to all public professions no one would sign up for them.

The OKC quota system sounds like a bad idea that's bound to generate the kind of "discipline" you described.

An officer who DOESN'T occasionally mutter "what the fuck" is probably not paying enough attention!

 

[Point Break]

Over my 40+ years at work I’ve seen LEO excesses on more than one occasion but not very often. I always said……good thing I’m not a cop……I’d shoot somebody my first morning. It requires a tremendous amount of self control.

So…….late 70’s on the medic unit……..at a very popular local beach that attracted a lot of…….”odd folks”…..we get a call for a “unknown medical problem”. We arrive and there are a few of the local cops standing around a chain link fence. Up on the fence about 8 feet kinda sideways is a naked guy with his fingers and toes through the fence gripping the fence. He is barking and snarling at everybody that walks by. It wasn’t pretty.

My partner and I walk up and now we’re all standing around looking at the guy figuratively scratching our heads. I look at the patrol sgt say “what are you guys gonna do?”

He says “nothing, it’s a fire/medical problem.”

I say “nope, looks like a law enforcement problem to me.”

He takes out his baton and walks up to the fence on the opposite side of the guy, reaches up and whacks the fingers sticking through the fence. The guy loses his grip and falls/slides down the fence to the ground and is now rolling around holding his fingers in one hand and howling/barking. The sgt puts away his baton and perfectly deadpan says “now it’s a fire/medical problem.”

As we walk around the fence to the howling naked guy I walk past him and smiling at him I mutter “asshole.”

Those “Wild West” days are gone.

 

[DA-WOODY]

When I was a lifeguard right out of the.military (1976), one of the beaches I worked for a bit could be kind of a “trouble spot” with some local riff raff and drug deals etc. One was particularly troublesome, harassing teen girls, picking fights in the parking lot, dealing drugs, and generally being a colossal dickhead.

One day he got into a loud argument at the main tower with the Lt (we had lots of coastline which was divided up regionally supervisor-wise amongst a handful of Lt’s who each had a number of beaches).

Now this Lt was a pretty big guy and pretty no nonsense. Not a very talkative or pleasant sort. He asks the guy to step into the station (two stories, guard tower above a very small garage/equipment room, small office and shower/ready room). The guy steps in to continue the confrontation and the Lt closes the door, turns on the showers for a little noise, and provides some “wall to wall counseling” in the shower room. The door opens and the guy leaves in wet clothes with a swollen cheek. The Lt comes out, gets in the Jeep and drives off down the beach. We never saw the guy again.

Those days are gone…..and although “non-judicial punishment” was immediate and often effective……it’s vulnerable to poor judgement in the administration and is probably for the best…….but occasionally I inwardly lament the loss.

Just Say OB

I still have a Friend = Retired SDPD Sargent who worked OB
Built like an APE
He would, not that long ago in conversations with a subset having means of transportation in common
When other guy was acting like they need show respect as they were TUFF
He would say that just for Fun on his day off they could meet where ever for a little friendly workout
He had Fun but didn't share it.
That was NOT challenging/confronting anyone or violating anything. (co. policy ??)
Just Mutual Combat not work related
still don't think it would fly today

 

[Point Break]

And this is why I could not be a police officer. I would have at least tazed her bro………

 

[robtoujours]

Hey V, I have a question.

Do you ever get any training about or some awareness of Cluster B Personality Disorders?

Probably antisocial/histrionic would be most visible to cops ..

 

[billy backstay]

And this is why I could not be a police officer. I would have at least tazed her bro………

Why the hell didn't he tase her??

 

[barleymalt]

I don't waste nearly as much time here as I used to, finished wading through all 32 pages of this. Some really interesting insights from both sides along with the usual SA shitslinging.
First, Vernon, thanks for doing this, and for what you do on a daily basis. It sounds like an incredibly stressful and mostly thankless job.
Question. Since you started, how has technology changed policing, how you go about your job and positives and negatives. I realize this is a broad question, I will leave it up to you to pick specifics.

 

[Ed Lada]

Hey V, I have a question.

Do you ever get any training about or some awareness of Cluster B Personality Disorders?

Probably antisocial/histrionic would be most visible to cops ..

So they know this, then what? It's pretty much a given that most criminals at least have antisocial traits if not full blown antisocial personality disorder. Serial killers among others are probably psychopaths Histrionic? Meh.

I would be willing to wager if a large sample of police personnel were given the Millon Multi- axial Clinical Inventory (MCMI), one of the most widely used personality testing instruments, most, of them would score the highest on the sociopath, narcissistic, and histrionic scales. The same with most criminals. The 'thin blue line' and all that. Those 3 scales are where most soldiers score the highest as well. It's one thing to have these personality traits, it's another thing to have the full blown personality disorder. The only way for this information to be truly useful is to follow up with an extensive interview and possibly further psychological testing based on the elevated scales on the MCMI and the amount of elevation.

So armed with this information, how would this help the police do their job better? What is the primary function of the police, social workers or LEOs?

 

[robtoujours]

Wasn't asking you ...

 

[Steam Flyer]

... ... What is the primary function of the police, social workers or LEOs?

Our whole socio-economic system is grappling with this problem. No good answer. The only thing I can say is, that as more and more people in a country turn shitty, then the country itself turns shitty and there are no good options for anybody.

 

[billy backstay]

So armed with this information, how would this help the police do their job better? What is the primary function of the police, social workers or LEOs?

We need to separate the two nationwide. There needs to be trained qualified mental health workers for LEO calls where they are indicated.

 

[Point Break]

We need to separate the two nationwide. There needs to be trained qualified mental health workers for LEO calls where they are indicated.

My experience has been “where they are indicated” is almost impossible for dispatchers to figure out from a 911 caller and can be still pretty hard to figure out once you get there. There are instances where it’s obvious and they get lots of attention but they are nowhere near the majority. It becomes a little more obvious as the incident progresses but then you’re well into the problem.

 

[billy backstay]

My experience has been “where they are indicated” is almost impossible for dispatchers to figure out from a 911 caller and can be still pretty hard to figure out once you get there. There are instances where it’s obvious and they get lots of attention but they are nowhere near the majority. It becomes a little more obvious as the incident progresses but then you’re well into the problem.

With all your experience can you suggest anything? And how is that book coming along?

 

[Point Break]

With all your experience can you suggest anything? And how is that book coming along?

I have to say years of experience do not always translate into blinding revelations of potential solutions. That said there is near universal agreement amongst responders, hospitals and agencies responsible that we need a deeper and more accessible mental health system. A mental heath crisis that requires law intervention in an emergent setting is rarely the first sign of mental illness. Families call 911 because there isn’t any other help available. Even when the behavioral problem that caused the law/fire/ems response is correctly identified as a mental heath issue the only place to take them is the ER. Then the ER has no resources available in any timely manner at discharge.

The real solutions for the vast majority is a robust mental health treatment system readily accessible BEFORE it becomes a 911 situation. Once that happens, sorting it out on the phone or during the 1st interactions with responders is fraught with accuracy issues and potentially dangerous for everybody involved.