I'm a police officer and a swat team member, ask me anything?

[Point Break]

My experience has been that although violence is a relatively rare occurrence in people with mental health issues, professions with regular contact in uncontrolled settings such as LEO's, FD, EMS have a greater chance of such an encounter due to the number of those persons with whom they are called into contact with. These contacts are most often when these folks are having some emergent episode and they are stressed.

The really difficult thing is - even after 37 years in the streets - its not always obvious who is about to erupt in violent and dangerous reactions. With literally no training in deescalation techniques I have successfully talked some people who were violent and aggressive into letting me help them. I also have been dangerously suddenly surprised by some who I thought were not going to be violent. I was never hurt by anyone in those situations....or really even had a close call....but I know co-workers who were. I guess my point is............you never know, so you are always "on guard" and I think if you are not careful it can taint and bias your interactions, not because you are a bad person but because you are assuming the worst based on some past experience. It happens to LEO's with perhaps greater frequency because of the nature of the type of calls for service.

Short story, we responded to a local street woman famous for her antics. Screaming at cars, spitting and hitting at people and cars going by. The abbreviated version is after a scuffle in which several cops got bit she was in handcuffs but needed to be medically evaluated before the trip to jail. I sat down next to her as she glared at me and asked if the handcuffs hurt. She nodded yes. I talked the cops into taking the handcuffs off which they thought was an exceedingly bad idea. Then she and I chatted and she agreed to let me look at her. Afterwards she looked at me and said "I like you". I said thank you and paused and asked her why she was so aggressively angry that morning. She looked at me and quietly and very coherently said "I hate people". I didn't know what to say so I just said "I'm sorry" and that was pretty much the end of my role in her care. Afterwards I reflected on several things. First how a quiet calm show of caring settled things down, and second how unpredictably they can just as easily go south.

I still don't know how to reliably sort out those who are having some crisis from those who are dangerous.

 

[Ed Lada]

No worries and I sincerely wish you the best.

Ed L is a good person going thru bad times including a war next door.

Thanks guys, I appreciate that!

I hate to let my personal situation spill over to people who are blameless, but these are trying times indeed. I will try to behave better here. I'm not stupid enough to promise anything, but I will try hard anyway.

 

[Ed Lada]

My experience has been that although violence is a relatively rare occurrence in people with mental health issues, professions with regular contact in uncontrolled settings such as LEO's, FD, EMS have a greater chance of such an encounter due to the number of those persons with whom they are called into contact with. These contacts are most often when these folks are having some emergent episode and they are stressed.

The really difficult thing is - even after 37 years in the streets - its not always obvious who is about to erupt in violent and dangerous reactions. With literally no training in deescalation techniques I have successfully talked some people who were violent and aggressive into letting me help them. I also have been dangerously suddenly surprised by some who I thought were not going to be violent. I was never hurt by anyone in those situations....or really even had a close call....but I know co-workers who were. I guess my point is............you never know, so you are always "on guard" and I think if you are not careful it can taint and bias your interactions, not because you are a bad person but because you are assuming the worst based on some past experience. It happens to LEO's with perhaps greater frequency because of the nature of the type of calls for service.

Short story, we responded to a local street woman famous for her antics. Screaming at cars, spitting and hitting at people and cars going by. The abbreviated version is after a scuffle in which several cops got bit she was in handcuffs but needed to be medically evaluated before the trip to jail. I sat down next to her as she glared at me and asked if the handcuffs hurt. She nodded yes. I talked the cops into taking the handcuffs off which they thought was an exceedingly bad idea. Then she and I chatted and she agreed to let me look at her. Afterwards she looked at me and said "I like you". I said thank you and paused and asked her why she was so aggressively angry that morning. She looked at me and quietly and very coherently said "I hate people". I didn't know what to say so I just said "I'm sorry" and that was pretty much the end of my role in her care. Afterwards I reflected on several things. First how a quiet calm show of caring settled things down, and second how unpredictably they can just as easily go south.

I still don't know how to reliably sort out those who are having some crisis from those who are dangerous.

A very perceptive and well explained post.

I think a good part of the problem is EMTs are perceived as being helpful, and they are generally caring kinds of people and used to staying calm under pressure, all good things in a tense situation. LEOs on the other hand are often macho types with healthy egos and a gun. In the marital therapy business, we talk about 'taking a one down position'. It's hard to fight with somebody that won't fight back. It is the fastest appropriate way to deescalate a conflict, the result is often almost immediate. LEOs don't always have the luxury of being able to do that but in many situations they can. The problem is you have to sublimate your ego to not rise to the challenge of a verbal or physical altercation. Men especially hate to do that, they think it shows weakness. It would take a lot of time and training to get maybe a small percentage of LEOs to become proficient in that particular skill.

Years ago I had be one on one with a patient on a locked psych ward at University Hospital, the only public hospital in a town full of medical centers. He was a Mexican national in his early 30s that had come to San Antonio to visit family. He had the misfortune to suffer a stroke during the visit and he had no health insurance and the stroke rendered him a paraplegic so the hospital couldn't discharge him. Whatever he did for a living must have been some kind of manual labor because the man was built like a tank. Massive arms, barrel chested. And he could move his upper body just fine. The man only understood Spanish and he couldn't speak coherently in any language. So he was a handful. At one point he threw a female tech across the room with a forearm swipe. So being a big guy, he became my project as most of the staff was female.

One day I was helping the guy with his hygiene and as always I made sure to be respectful and gentle toward him. At some point, he took one of my rather large hands into his even larger ones and as he clasped my hand tightly he looked up at me with tears rolling down his cheeks and trying to say something. I'm pretty sure he was trying to thank me for being the only staff on that unit that treated him with the same respect any human deserves. I never totally let my guard down around him, however I was quite confident that as long as I treated him the way I did, I had nothing to fear from him. A little empathy and compassion can go a long way in many circumstances.

 

[Point Break]

A little empathy and compassion can go a long way in many circumstances.

This is very true. I always made it a point to call people I encountered “sir” or “mam” and treated everyone with respect……till it just wasn’t possible but those were rare. Even really jacked up people eventually responded to calm respectful interactions. I tried to treat people like I’d like my pop / who could be difficult - to be treated. It worked most of the time……and when it didn’t I was pretty happy the LEO’s were around.

 

[Ed Lada]

This is very true. I always made it a point to call people I encountered “sir” or “mam” and treated everyone with respect……till it just wasn’t possible but those were rare. Even really jacked up people eventually responded to calm respectful interactions. I tried to treat people like I’d like my pop / who could be difficult - to be treated. It worked most of the time……and when it didn’t I was pretty happy the LEO’s were around.

Just even being calm is helpful. When I did a lot of crisis intervention before I walked in the room I would pause a moment to get my head in the right place and put on my calm, competent face. Then I would walk into the room and the individual(s) would look up at me and right away you could feel the sense of relief come over them. Somebody was there to help them!! Of course on occasion my heart would be pounding wildly and I would be wonder how in the hell I was going to help to resolve what terrible mess had occurred but of course you can't show any of that. It wouldn't do well for the guy getting called in to the ER at 3 a.m. to take one look and start screaming along with them. I would do the same thing when I was working in the trauma room. A few calm people in the middle of mayhem have a real influence in the mood of the situation. Panic breeds panic and calm breeds calm. And things generally go much better if at least one person can stay calm. Pretty basic concept, it's learning to do it well that requires some work.

So the same concept applies to LEOs in a mental health crisis situation. Not all officers are like Vern here. And most people that go into law enforcement aren't usually social worker types to begin with. Add a very difficult, often dangerous job dealing day in and day out with some of the worst that society has to offer, it isn't hard to understand some of the inappropriate or less than deal behavior behavior sometimes. That's why it would be nice if police departments could have a 'social work swat team' available for these situations to accompany the LEOS, and some cities do. But it's expensive and therefore not very popular in spite of the potential dividends that could be reaped in the long run.

 

[silent bob]

This is very true. I always made it a point to call people I encountered “sir” or “mam” and treated everyone with respect.

That would get you fired now. The proper pronouns are Shim/It, or something like that. I’m still having a hard time with They/Them for singular use!

 

[Point Break]

That would get you fired now. The proper pronouns are Shim/It, or something like that. I’m still having a hard time with They/Them for singular use!

Yeah……I’m glad I retired before the pronoun issues hit the FD. I’m not equipped.

It took me decades just to learn to say “firefighter” instead of “fireman”. When I was hired, the job flyer was for “fireman” so I claimed “pre-existing non-conforming”.

Didn’t work.

 

[veni vidi vici]

Great price for Holosun - thru 23 Dec

 

[Vgree]

Several people noted how a person's demeanor while dealing with someone who is mentally unstable can go a long way. That is 100% true and officers are taught it, not saying it always happens but you wouldn't believe the number of violent situations that we somehow manage to de-escalate through verbal communication.

Many times I can keep myself safe while allowing the person quite a bit of freedom, a few weeks ago there was a subject punching a wall over and over while I talked to him. His parents wanted me to make him stop because he was damaging things, I just let him keep doing it because it seemed to be helping him relieve the stress/anxiety he was dealing with and it wasn't hurting me in any way. After 20 minutes of conversation he agreed to go get help with nothing physical required. His parents called in a complaint for me letting him tear up his room, I'm not sure what they wanted because stopping him was going to result in a fight and him getting hurt.

Many people have mentioned the "Ego" thing that many officers have, it is 100% an issue that I see and try and train out of new recruits. There is a time and a place to stand your ground and a time to "lose" if it can be done safely. On arrests and such we just can't let people get away with much, and that mental mindset makes it's way into the mental health situations sometimes.

 

[DA-WOODY]

 

[DA-WOODY]

 

[DA-WOODY]

Terrorism probed in New Year's Eve Times Square machete attack on cops: Sources

 

[Vgree]

Terrorism probed in New Year's Eve Times Square machete attack on cops: Sources

I saw that one,
The part of the article that bothers me is the rookie officer got a laceration and a fractured skull. Then they say below that the officers are expected to recover.
I'm glad to hear the officer is doing well, but a cracked skull is no joke, and likely a debilitating injury. It kinda gets blown off in the article.

I'm sure the bad guy will be out in no time.

 

[longy]

The edged weapon used is much closer to a Gurkha 'kukri' than a machete

 

[DA-WOODY]

I saw that one,
The part of the article that bothers me is the rookie officer got a laceration and a fractured skull. Then they say below that the officers are expected to recover.
I'm glad to hear the officer is doing well, but a cracked skull is no joke, and likely a debilitating injury. It kinda gets blown off in the article.

I'm sure the bad guy will be out in no time.

I do Not like that after injuring 3 LEO's suspect was shot in the shoulder ???

Gun CONTROL is The Answer

Fucker should have had another Open mouth installed between his eyes

did only one take 1 shot at the Fucker ?

where did any/all other spent rounds end up ??

I can't imagine a blow to the head with anything sharp to be less than near fatal

How can an LEO go a bouts their job being Mr Nicey Nice to everyone when somewhere someone is "That" guy out to kill you.

VG I Hope your year shall be filled with lucky breaks and end with you and your loved ones having felt happy and safe from end to end !!

 

[Bruno]

Apologize if this has been asked and answered, long thread.
Park Police, Bijan Ghaisar, righteous or not?
Politics or not?
Thanks.

 

[Vgree]

The edged weapon used is much closer to a Gurkha 'kukri' than a machete

It is a kukri, which many classify as a type of machete.

I do Not like that after injuring 3 LEO's suspect was shot in the shoulder ???

Gun CONTROL is The Answer

Fucker should have had another Open mouth installed between his eyes

did only one take 1 shot at the Fucker ?

where did any/all other spent rounds end up ??

I can't imagine a blow to the head with anything sharp to be less than near fatal

How can an LEO go a bouts their job being Mr Nicey Nice to everyone when somewhere someone is "That" guy out to kill you.

VG I Hope your year shall be filled with lucky breaks and end with you and your loved ones having felt happy and safe from end to end !!

This happened I'm Time Square, I'm sure there was a massive crowd so it is possible they were only able to take one shot safely, and if one shot ended the lethal threat then good on them for assessing that and to stop shooting. That's what they are supposed to do.

 

[Vgree]

Apologize if this has been asked and answered, long thread.
Park Police, Bijan Ghaisar, righteous or not?
Politics or not?
Thanks.

Honestly I hadn't heard of that particular shooting so I went and researched it. Here are my thoughts;

I classify every shooting in a few categories. There are "bad shootings" which are legally unjustified and I believe the officer should be charged.

Next are "legally justified" shootings. These meet the legal requirements to use lethal force but were either a mistake of facts (thought they saw a gun or some other piece of info was wrong) shooting or bad tactics forced the incident. Many times bad tactics placed the officer in the situation that forced that choice, bad tactics aren't criminal, but may mean the officer needs to leave the job.

Lastly there are what I call "righteous shootings". I define those as ones that the officer did everything right but was forced to use lethal force to protect himself or others. They are still a tragedy because any lose of life is sad, but these are the ones that the officer shouldn't be judged for.


With that in mind I look at the shooting by the Park Police.
I have no idea why the kid didn't just either stay at the scene of the accident or just stop when first confronted by police. There is zero doubt that his actions contributed to the incident, it doesn't make it right but I look at all factors.
The tactics of the officers are poor at best, approaching the car the way they did the first and second time placed them in a position of elevated danger. I am guessing these officer don't work many pursuits or deal with dangerous suspects very often because their actions are those of someone fairly untrained in those type of situations.
When he stopped for the third time the officer who exited the passenger side of the car in front was in a dangerous location and had Bijan drove forward as that officer was between the two cars I could at least understand the thought process because legally he would be protecting himself from being pinned between the two cars. But that isn't what happened.

When they did decide to shoot none of the officer were in imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury that I could make out so to me it would seem to be an unjustified shooting.

Final statement, I wasn't there, I didn't see what they saw, none of us did. If Bijan had held up something (cellphone, wallet, etc) to the window and it was mistaken as a gun then I could at least understand their actions and their actions must be judged from the point of view of a reasonable officer in their situation, not with 20/20 hindsight.

I'm shocked they were found justified, but I didn't investigate it.