I'm not comfortable with this

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,598
2,102
Back to the desert
 






 





View in browser | nytimes.com




NYT-WMK-W-RGB.png





 









BREAKING NEWS






The U.S. has provided intelligence that has helped Ukraine target and kill many Russian generals who have died in the war, officials said.





Wednesday, May 4, 2022 7:49 PM ET





The targeting help is part of a classified effort by the Biden administration to provide real-time battlefield intelligence to Ukraine. Officials declined to specify how many generals had been killed as a result of U.S. assistance.





Read the latest














I don't think the press should be reporting this stuff.  The current climate with the US and the West's involvement in helping UKR is still obviously extremely sensitive and delicate.  It could and most likely will lead to Russian retaliation of some sort, thereby escalating the tensions even more.  And in the worst case, a nuke exchange - though highly unlikely.

I'm not at ALL suggesting that the US gov't censor or stop the press from publishing this stuff, but rather I think a responsible press should weigh the cost along with the benefits of reporting this.  It used to be a common tradition that the press didn't report on sensitive wartime information while the US is engaged in a conflict.  And while we're not directly engaged, we are in it balls deep trying to help a nascent democracy survive against an aggressor.  I think that should count for something.  

I do hope the DOJ and the FBI investigate and prosecute the fuck out of whoever is leaking this info and locks them up.  It *may* be that this is kinda of an open secret and it's known that the US is providing intel.  But no one should be talking to the press about these sorts of specifics.  The Russians and the SVR most likely already know the US is providing this sort of specific intel.  But when you put it in the press, you are backing the russian bear in a corner and provoking him to act.  

I just think this is a foul.  Same for the follow on story that the US provided specific targeting info for the Ukes to sink the moskova.  Just saying.......

 
Okay, to get a little thread drift going here on post #4, and responding to my own pic: why does that tattoo have a fouled anchor on it and what looks like a sailor's sleeve?

The fouled anchor is a Marine symbol.

(Semper Fi, y'all!)

 

BeSafe

Super Anarchist
7,980
1,289
 


 





I don't think the press should be reporting this stuff.  The current climate with the US and the West's involvement in helping UKR is still obviously extremely sensitive and delicate.  It could and most likely will lead to Russian retaliation of some sort, thereby escalating the tensions even more.  And in the worst case, a nuke exchange - though highly unlikely.

I'm not at ALL suggesting that the US gov't censor or stop the press from publishing this stuff, but rather I think a responsible press should weigh the cost along with the benefits of reporting this.  It used to be a common tradition that the press didn't report on sensitive wartime information while the US is engaged in a conflict.  And while we're not directly engaged, we are in it balls deep trying to help a nascent democracy survive against an aggressor.  I think that should count for something.  

I do hope the DOJ and the FBI investigate and prosecute the fuck out of whoever is leaking this info and locks them up.  It *may* be that this is kinda of an open secret and it's known that the US is providing intel.  But no one should be talking to the press about these sorts of specifics.  The Russians and the SVR most likely already know the US is providing this sort of specific intel.  But when you put it in the press, you are backing the russian bear in a corner and provoking him to act.  

I just think this is a foul.  Same for the follow on story that the US provided specific targeting info for the Ukes to sink the moskova.  Just saying.......
I'm not sure that the report matters in the long run - the Russians know the Ukranians are getting advanced intel.  They know Putin's phones are being tracked and that folks internal to the Kremlin are leaking info.   They'll be planting false info to ferret out the spies and use the US press to confirm suspicions.  But that's all 'normal war' stuff.  The cat and mouse of espionage.

Politically, it helps the Russians 'sell' their narrative that this is really a US proxy war that the beautiful homeland is having to wage for its very survival!  They HAVE to fight in Ukraine because those evil American provocateurs are poisoning the minds of their peaceful neighbors!  That helps them a little bit with public opinion but it also encourages the more rebellious lot to try their hand and breaking away.  That COULD be a 'game within a game' and explain why Putin has been so reluctant to commit more forces - that he's worried about other breakaways and is hoping to leverage such leaks to flush them out.    That's a bit meta for me and I don't buy it.

The more warmonger types get to feel good about doing SOMETHING and feel like WE'RE a vital part!  You might be doing all the dying but they NEED US!

The peaceniks get to feel good because its not US shooting someone.

All that being said, the real point of the NYT is to sell papers and people want to read about it.  It seems like a big scoop to the casual observer and gives the armchair quarterbacks something to talk about.

I find it more interesting to watch how the pentagon avoids lying - just cause I like that stuff.  Its funny to watch people tie themselves in knots rather than just say the truth out loud.   We 'don't help the Ukrainians pick targets'.  That's probably true.  What we DO do is give them thorough maps and timetables of all the high value assets in near real time and, if there's any confusion, we help them read the legend so they don't accidentally shoot a good guy - like an grain ship or something.   But what they ACTUALLY shoot at is up to them.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
26,530
3,712
Suwanee River
Okay, to get a little thread drift going here on post #4, and responding to my own pic: why does that tattoo have a fouled anchor on it and what looks like a sailor's sleeve?

The fouled anchor is a Marine symbol.

(Semper Fi, y'all!)
Because the Marine corps is part of the department of the Navy.

 Sailors wear 13 buttons on their fly because they can count that high, and wait that long.

 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,598
2,102
Back to the desert
Politically, it helps the Russians 'sell' their narrative that this is really a US proxy war that the beautiful homeland is having to wage for its very survival!  They HAVE to fight in Ukraine because those evil American provocateurs are poisoning the minds of their peaceful neighbors! 
I think this is the biggest danger of all.  If stuff like this whips up public support for pootain, then it will be that much harder to dislodge him from power and from the notion that the UKR is a lost cause.  That political sort of stuff leads to bigger wars.  

 

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
94,188
11,718
Earth
Agree 100%. I want us doing all of that and anything else Ukraine requests, short of active combat roles, but I don’t want to know about it until much later. 

 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,598
2,102
Back to the desert
Agree 100%. I want us doing all of that and anything else Ukraine requests, short of active combat roles, but I don’t want to know about it until much later. 
Exactly, I don't think stuff like that needs to be for public consumption right now.  I think ultimately it will undermine the efforts to help the UKR.  

 

El Borracho

Verified User
6,664
2,640
Pacific Rim
It is not the press that needs to reform. If this info was supposed to be a secret but was leaked that is an internal affair of the military and intel departments. On one hand we would think keeping secrets would be routine, on the other hand safely driving ships should be a simple matter too.

If the US press can get access to this info then foreign press and agents certainly can.

However nobody is surprised that such targeting intel was shared. Especially the Russians. The bigger issue might be the public embarrassment, diplomatic anger, and giving cover for escalation. 

 

Ishmael

52,297
12,134
Fuctifino
I see this as just ongoing efforts in the intel war that the West has been playing since the beginning of the invasion. Many Russian moves were released to the press before they happened, I wouldn't be surprised if this is to keep them off balance.

 

Sol Rosenberg

Girthy Member
94,188
11,718
Earth
Exactly, I don't think stuff like that needs to be for public consumption right now.  I think ultimately it will undermine the efforts to help the UKR.  
None of it surprised me. We’ve all seen the screen caps showing our aircraft keeping tabs on everything. It doesn’t take Chief Inspector Clouseau to deduce their mission. But that was enough to make me smile when I read about the west not doing enough, well, that and the reports of what we ARE sending, instead of what we aren’t. Very disappointed to see it reported this early. 

 
Because the Marine corps is part of the department of the Navy.

 Sailors wear 13 buttons on their fly because they can count that high, and wait that long.
That's Corps, with a capital C. B)

So, a Squid with a fouled anchor because he couldn't make it as a Marine?

(Reminds me of a certain poster on this site who uses an avatar of a soldier, but never wore the uniform himself.)

 
I see this as just ongoing efforts in the intel war that the West has been playing since the beginning of the invasion. Many Russian moves were released to the press before they happened, I wouldn't be surprised if this is to keep them off balance.
I agree. Nothing has been "accidentally" leaked to the press that wasn't intended for Russian ears as well.

 

Mark K

Super Anarchist
47,621
1,860
I rather suspect it wasn't intentional, as in ordered from the top. As in the admin has already contradicted the direct targeting stuff. More likely it was some PR officer responding to being constantly hounded with "Why aren't we doing more?!?!"  A reflection of the Ukes constant refrain. We seem to be playing a game of "There's a lot of sigint from right over there somewhere", or "look over there and see an interesting looking boat" wink wink nudge nudge say no more. 

 The say no no more part is going to be emphasized to someone...  

 
vintage-wwii-comic-postcard-of-gi-on-kp-kitchen-duty-BH7HBM.jpg


 

Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
26,530
3,712
Suwanee River
That's Corps, with a capital C. B)

So, a Squid with a fouled anchor because he couldn't make it as a Marine?

(Reminds me of a certain poster on this site who uses an avatar of a soldier, but never wore the uniform himself.)
Tell that to the SEALS.

(Theoretically, the number of twists of the rode around the anchor indicate the number of times crossing the Equator..... I doubt that's the case any more.) My anchor has no rode, but I've crossed several times.

 

mikewof

mikewof
45,639
1,209
I don't think the press should be reporting this stuff.  The current climate with the US and the West's involvement in helping UKR is still obviously extremely sensitive and delicate.  It could and most likely will lead to Russian retaliation of some sort, thereby escalating the tensions even more.  And in the worst case, a nuke exchange - though highly unlikely.

I'm not at ALL suggesting that the US gov't censor or stop the press from publishing this stuff, but rather I think a responsible press should weigh the cost along with the benefits of reporting this.  It used to be a common tradition that the press didn't report on sensitive wartime information while the US is engaged in a conflict.  And while we're not directly engaged, we are in it balls deep trying to help a nascent democracy survive against an aggressor.  I think that should count for something.  

I do hope the DOJ and the FBI investigate and prosecute the fuck out of whoever is leaking this info and locks them up.  It *may* be that this is kinda of an open secret and it's known that the US is providing intel.  But no one should be talking to the press about these sorts of specifics.  The Russians and the SVR most likely already know the US is providing this sort of specific intel.  But when you put it in the press, you are backing the russian bear in a corner and provoking him to act.  

I just think this is a foul.  Same for the follow on story that the US provided specific targeting info for the Ukes to sink the moskova.  Just saying.......
Seriously JBSF, and Gator even supports you in this?

A well-run newspaper reports anything and everything that they receive because it is not the press's concern what happens when people read the truth, simply that they receive the truth. The only exceptions are for minors and sometimes for victims of crimes. But in this case, the U.S. is perpetrator, spy and proxy executioner.

Your complaint should be with the defense employees and public servants who decided to release this knowledge to the public, not with the people who published it. Your complaint is akin to blaming the gun manufacturer for the murder rather than the person who decided to pick up the weapon and pull the trigger.

 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,598
2,102
Back to the desert
Seriously JBSF, and Gator even supports you in this?

A well-run newspaper reports anything and everything that they receive because it is not the press's concern what happens when people read the truth, simply that they receive the truth. The only exceptions are for minors and sometimes for victims of crimes. But in this case, the U.S. is perpetrator, spy and proxy executioner.

Your complaint should be with the defense employees and public servants who decided to release this knowledge to the public, not with the people who published it. Your complaint is akin to blaming the gun manufacturer for the murder rather than the person who decided to pick up the weapon and pull the trigger.
Oh FFS, RIF.

 




Top