In this day where multihulls are cleary the fastest boats on the ocean, why do we even care about huge monohulls anymore?" Bob Perry,

[WillyT123]

Well, I’m glad we’ve settled that!

But seriously, if I were given the design brief to build a sailboat that could win races of 1,000+ miles in the open ocean, with the only parameter being maximum length, of course I’d go with a multihull—even more so if the crew was limited in size.  Every long distance sailing speed record that I am aware of is held by multihulls. It is bizarre to watch very rich people spending piles of cash to build 100’  racing monohulls that take a crew of 35 and have zero creature comforts when a pile of cash half that size would pay for a much smaller multihull that could quite literally sail circles around for the 100’ monohull with a crew of 6.  

As for the AC Cup boat, I’d be delighted to see it offshore—one would have to look quickly before it crashed and sank.  Maybe someday, but right now anyone who wants to get from one side of an ocean to the other really damn fast is going to be driving a multihull.

Yes, I'm fairly sure the quote was referring to grand prix offshore racing. And I think the reasoning behind the preoccupation with 100' carbon monohulls when tri's are clearly better for record breaking could provide an interesting discussion. Perhaps no one wants to deal with the necessary french crew! 

 

[slap]

I don’t see many cruising multis on the West Coast but I’ve yet to be impressed with their performance in real world, lets tack up the bay with all our cruising stuff to the next anchorage scenarios. Sure, I know there are stripped out, stark minimalist interior multis that are going to be faster but our 40’ mono with three double cabins, woodsy interior and most every comfort amenity one could need has blown the doors off of more Seawinds, Gemini’s and Mantas in our 8-12 kt average conditions than I could possibly count. The only clear cut advantage I would acknowledge is the after sail barbecue at anchorage. 

The Seawinds I've run across seem to be faster than the typical condo cats.   But usually I pass the the condo cats with my 32 foot cruising mono.  During those rare times they have their sails up.

My wife liked to go onboard the condo cats at the Annapolis show.   She's lost interest in them after I pointed out how often we pass them when we are out sailing.

 

[estarzinger]

Yes, I'm fairly sure the quote was referring to grand prix offshore racing.

yea, I remember bob making the comment . . . In context it was essentially a throw away line not meant to be taken literally - basically a reductio ad absurdum to make a point.  He would made comments like this when he was feeling his oats, I suspect he forgot most of them the instant he hit send.  (edit: but then when you are a god as Bob is, people tend to carve your throw away comments on stone tablets)

On some of the other arguments related to cost and practicality I would just repeat the old. . . . . "if you have to ask....".  Big racing monos & multis are not for people concerned about the price of slips or where to haul out.  One of the joys of sailing (and cruising) is that there are so many varied ways to do it - there is a deep richness of ideas and approaches that is valuable.

 

[European Bloke]

I got kind of turned off to the whole big cat thing when I realized a hurricane could pick them up and launch them ashore





Not that hu

Don't buy a house. Boats land on them.

Get a tent. There are no tents in that picture with boats on them, must be safer.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Don't buy a house. Boats land on them.

Get a tent. There are no tents in that picture with boats on them, must be safer.

No goats are trapped under there, so the real answer is to strap a goat to yourself

Seriously, hurricanes are enough of a pain as it is, but at least once we got up a creek and anchored we could relax except for checking the anchor rode and for dragging. I can't imagine adding "If the boat takes off flying into town, someone look for a nice liquor store to land on" to the standing orders for the anchor watch

Those issues aside, if you ever get a chance to sail a nice racing trimaran all other boats end up seeming slow.

 

[Panoramix]

Perhaps no one wants to deal with the necessary french crew! 

Don't you like garlic and cheese?

 

[Paranda]

Apart from the masochists among us , downwind is the only way people sail around the world…

Condomarans are faster downwind than monohuls of the same length

They do not roll like mad ;they do not broach , no stowing of everything loose needed ,less fatigue living upright…

Slowly but steadily the percentage of “ condomarans “ amongst the seagoing folk rises….
There must be a reason…?

 .

As for the oceangoing racers , mono,s are no contest !

See the results of Fastnet , RORC transat ,Middlesea race , Roundtheisland White …

I rest my case

 

[kinardly]

A comparison based only on the worst point of sail of a bridgedeck cat seems to me to be not very useful.

No argument but that was kind of my point. The truth is I’ve never seen a cruising multi in conditions in which it actually excels, I.e. a nice long broad or beam reach in 20 plus. More often around here we are beating or reaching for short legs around our bays or outside, clawing our way up the coast or running downwind in light to moderate conditions and I have yet to be passed by any cats and very few tris except for the bigger Corsairs. And, though I’ve sailed the latter on a couple of occasions and had a ball doing so, I wouldn’t be able to interest my family in actually cruising one or even going for an overnighter. 
 

So, for the average cruiser’s purposes I don’t think the multis deliver in comparison to their added cost and, at least in Southern California, the difficulty in finding suitable slips. 

 

[socalrider]

So, for the average cruiser’s purposes I don’t think the multis deliver in comparison to their added cost and, at least in Southern California, the difficulty in finding suitable slips. 

Every time I'm out at Catalina or the Channel Islands & see a cat & get jealous though.  The biggest advantage they have is their stability in our rolly West Coast anchorages.  

There are mooring balls available in Dago & Newport, so for some (myself included) the cost delta might not be too bad.  The biggest issues for me are:

1. Cost - as crazy as the market is in general, it seems the multihull market is even more nuts.  YW shows ONE cat FS on the W. Coast, a 2018 Antares 44 listed for $890k.  Almost cheaper to order a new build it seems.  

2. Upwind runs - cruising the W. Coast we spend a lot of time motoring straight into swell/current to get NW - worst set of conditions for a multi.  Big reason we went with a trawler & I'm happy with my decision every time we steam by a Lagoon 40 making the trek to Catalina, them pitching at 6.5kts & us smooth as silk at 8.5.  Then I see them at anchor & get jealous again...

3. Headroom - At 6'2" the most appealing & affordable multis (older lightweight French cats) are off the table.  Combine that with #1 & I'm out of the market.  

I'm going to cough up the $$ for a second flop stopper for this coming season.  Lots cheaper than a second hull.  

 

[DDW]

Bob's comment was clearly in the context of maxi racing, not cruising, but he did make it. I would not expect him to remember everything he's written in 35,000 posts, and in this case I agree with him to some extent, at least for speed under sail record setting. 

Apart from the masochists among us , downwind is the only way people sail around the world…

Condomarans are faster downwind than monohuls of the same length

They do not roll like mad ;they do not broach , no stowing of everything loose needed ,less fatigue living upright…

Slowly but steadily the percentage of “ condomarans “ amongst the seagoing folk rises….
There must be a reason…?

In satellite tracked downwind venues run over decades (such as the ARC), condomarans are not faster downwind. About the same. Even the lighter cruising cats are not meaningfully faster than monos. They will arrive a day earlier in a 15 day passage. So what? Weren't you doing it to enjoy the time spent? If not, an airline ticket is far cheaper, far quicker, and far more comfortable. I think the reason condomaran numbers are growing is they are more stable at anchor and have more accommodation space. Also the myth of speed, but in a data driven analysis, that is pretty much a myth. 

It is bizarre to watch very rich people spending piles of cash to build 100’  racing monohulls that take a crew of 35 and have zero creature comforts when a pile of cash half that size would pay for a much smaller multihull that could quite literally sail circles around for the 100’ monohull with a crew of 6.  

But again speed is relative measurement. You don't build a 100' mono or a 70' tri to go fast. There are all kinds of vehicles that go faster. You build one to go a little faster than the other guy's. In that context is doesn't matter how many hulls, it's the competition that counts. That is the reason that bathtub races, or the British Caravan racing are entertaining for the participants. 

 

[floater]

Probably it is Trovao that is owed the apology. 

View attachment 487472

wrong. it was a rhetorical question. Trovao's quote is out of context. still. who cares? 

I don’t see many cruising multis on the West Coast but I’ve yet to be impressed with their performance in real world, lets tack up the bay with all our cruising stuff to the next anchorage scenarios. Sure, I know there are stripped out, stark minimalist interior multis that are going to be faster but our 40’ mono with three double cabins, woodsy interior and most every comfort amenity one could need has blown the doors off of more Seawinds, Gemini’s and Mantas in our 8-12 kt average conditions than I could possibly count. The only clear cut advantage I would acknowledge is the after sail barbecue at anchorage. 

many have made the comment that big fat condo's typically sail like shit. I agree (actually, it's so bad how awful they are against a headwind and into chop they seem frankly dangerous, were they to lose power near a lee shore). But not sure whether it's the sailor or the sailboat - perhaps both. But the racing multihulls on SF Bay are on an entirely different level - and from all other boats on the bay - they are sailed expertly and move so fast it's pretty difficult to even get a look at one. lol

 

[DDW]

Right. It was a rhetorical question. Trovao's quote has no context to be out of. Still, who cares? Trovao I suppose, as he was taken to task for it. 

What racing multihulls on SF Bay? Almost all I see are the Corsairs and F boats. Some daysailing cats. Yes those are fast - but so are Aussie 18 skiffs, with about the same accommodation. The Lagoons and Seawinds, not so much. 

 

[fufkin]

If it’s about racing to the next anchorage to get set for afternoon festivities on a Caribbean charter, a catamaran of any speed wins hands down.

 

[Sail4beer]

There are no marinas around my way, so the average costal cruiser spends 0% of their lives tied to the dock.

Don't assume that the whole world is like your little chunk of it.

Well, tbh, he did say that if there isn’t a Marina around to keep a boat in, then you’re not going to buy one.

 

[Sail4beer]

I've apologized to Bob above. 

I have provided him (and everyone) with the source of the quote, which I saw and took from another (very prominent) posters sig file.  As such the quote has *ALREADY* been reproduced, perhaps hundreds of times here, on SA.    Trovao has over 7,000 posts.  I don't know how long he has been appending this now repudiated quote by Bob Perry to them.   I've only mentioned it once, albeit, in a thread title.  Still, my bad, and I'm sorry. 

The first person to call me (and the quote out) was ChuteFirst who said: 




It's particularly churlish for Trovao to "upvote"  the above,  where I am chastised for misquoting Bob, when in fact I am merely quoting Trovao himself, mis-quoting Bob. I think that's called "chutzpah" in New York. 

Here is Trovao's full (now repudiated) quote, with all original emphasis and context retained. 
 

Now, ChuteFirst has accused me of "misapplying" the quote. 

He says that the quote was referring to one thing, and I've applied it to another.  It was about racing, but I've posted it here in the Cruising forum. 

The fact that it was about racing is apparent if one goes and looks up the Rambler capsize, and sees that it was a 100' maxi-multihull that flipped in the Fastnet race.  This was apparent in Trovao's post, which  included "commenting on Rambler's capsize".   

So, if it was a real quote, then I would also say I'm sorry for mis-applying it.  But, then, quotes are misapplied a lot.  How many people know that Ghandi's famous "an eye for and eye makes the whole world blind" was made in response to him being told it was his turn to pay for lunch?  

So, it's a much lesser offense, and in fact, one thing that makes a great quote is that it's applicable in many more situations than the place it was originally uttered.   Saying "multihulls are clearly the fastest boats on the ocean now" would be that sort of quote.    

In any case, as I did not include the same level of context, I will admit I may have inadvertantly misapplied that, but that's not the same as misquoting someone - which the as Bull City has told me: Misquoting is a serious matter. What do you have to say for yourself?   

OK, Bull City. You have all the information. I've said what I have to say for myself.  It is Trovao who apparently created this now repudiated false quote. Because Bob Perry himself has said: "I most certainly did not say that."   Bull City, please take it up directly with Trovao,  I don't know why he did it.  It's a serious matter, as you say. 
 

You writing a fucking book or what?

 

[Panoramix]

In satellite tracked downwind venues run over decades (such as the ARC), condomarans are not faster downwind. About the same. Even the lighter cruising cats are not meaningfully faster than monos. They will arrive a day earlier in a 15 day passage.

Not always true...

My daughter has a friend whose family owns a catamaran. They've sailed from North Brittany to the Azores, Sweden among many places on annual leave time. This is something you can't do on a mono, it takes 10 to 12 days to go the Azores, it took them 7, with 3 weeks of leave they can just about do it. Their cat is a proper sailboat that needs to be sailed proactively, they all have lot of beach cat and windsurfing experience, I think it helps as they obviously have a good feel of apparent wind which is what tends to get you in trouble on a cat.

They've been at it for a decade or two, so not the average sailors... I wouldn't feel good enough to do this, I would need to rack up lot of coastal miles on a similar boat before.

 

[TwoLegged]

There are no marinas around my way, so the average costal cruiser spends 0% of their lives tied to the dock.

Don't assume that the whole world is like your little chunk of it.

Well, tbh, he did say that if there isn’t a Marina around to keep a boat in, then you’re not going to buy one.

I guess that all those boats in marina-less bays on the Irish coasts are a form of optical illusion.  Or maybe, like the moving statues, they are a sort of divine revelation, sent from on high as a sign to the faithful. 

 

[Rasputin22]

Is this a rhetorical thread?

 

[blunted]

Angle of vanishing stability

 

[Matagi]

beauty.

And if that is not the best reason to do sth. in this world, I don't know what is.