INEOS Team GB

enigmatically2

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But there are losses from a quicker turn too Mozzi, more rudder angle and the main foils are less head on so will be less efficient. Part of my doubt is that I can't see anything stopping all the teams turning more quickly. The headsails are very quick, the foil movements are quick. LR doesn't even have to change sides, so why not speed it up?

 
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Pretty sure all the others have at least two to go. AM may have four left. If it's true Ineos have used all their foil allocations, it points to a haphazard development program. Considering their Bermuda debacle, one is not entirely far fetched in describing Ben as a great sailor, poor to average team manager.
I'm not sure what the lead time is on a foil assembly, but it may be 3-4 months.

So even if one of the teams was to come out with something truly revolutionary, then the others would struggle to make a set for themselves in time for March, or even earlier when it comes trying to win the Prada Cup and face the Defender.

I guess having them out a bit earlier would give them more time to fine tune, understand, perhaps make minor changes or even major ones since they'd have the time left.

The whole set up of this cup is all about balancing so many factors and decisions, and each team may end in a different sweet spot with what they designed and optimised for.

Super intriguing. One would think that with all these supercomputing available to the teams they could really determine the same sweet spot, the same ideal foil shape and arrangement, the same sail shapes and the same hull shape.

Then there's the question of how much of a difference can the sailing crew make. It may be that boats are within 2-3% of each other, and a the very best sailing crew could make all perfect manoeuvres and in the end cover the course at 7% more average speed. 

 

Mozzy Sails

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Yeah, I get that rudder is a brake. But, you either use a smaller amount of rudder for longer, or a larger amount of rudder for shorter. So the penalty adds up the same. Using too much rudder becomes an issue when you stall it, which is very draggy. On heavy dinghies and yachts if you use too much rudder this happens, you end up not turning quickly, but just stalling and dragging the rudder. After all, you have a hull that wants to go straight working against a rudder that is trying to turn the boat. 

But it's close to what I am saying above skidding out. If you turning to quickly, the rudder could stall, This would cause drag, and you would stop turning. Or if the main foil loses grip you again get lots of drag, and you skid sideways. So I think they might be limited by how quickly their foils let go (just like a racing car losing grip in a turn).

I also think it's about co-oridnating control too. No point the helm spinning the wheel supper fast if the  foil can't be dropped and flaps then trimmed to provide lift as the weight is transferred to the outside of the turn. Or the main trimmer can takes 2-3 second to invert the main.. etc

Potentially some issue are limited by structural loading on the boat and foils?

But, if your systems are good enough, your foils don't stall, and the boat can take the load, then from a performance point of view the less time you spend off VMG the better. 

 

Xlot

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I'm not sure what the lead time is on a foil assembly, but it may be 3-4 months.
That would be true for large, complex shape, composite foils like for AC50s

Smaller, simpler foils that can be machined out of solid metal stock, it’s a matter of a few days

 

chesirecat

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But there are losses from a quicker turn too Mozzi, more rudder angle and the main foils are less head on so will be less efficient. Part of my doubt is that I can't see anything stopping all the teams turning more quickly. The headsails are very quick, the foil movements are quick. LR doesn't even have to change sides, so why not speed it up?
A sailing boat doesn't need a rudder to turn, indeed efficient turns are thru boat/rig trim and not the rudder. 49ers, for instance, have relatively small rudders which cause drag and stalling so they have to be kept really flat, especially mark rounding so minimal rudder is used.

 
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enigmatically2

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A sailing boat doesn't need a rudder to turn, indeed efficient turns are thru boat/rig trim and not the rudder. 49ers, for instance, have relatively small rudders which cause drag and stalling so they have to be kept really flat, especially mark rounding so minimal rudder is used.
Indeed I know, not just from racing but from teaching rudderless sailing in uni holidays.

But faster turns require (more) rudder, not just to speed up the turn but also to stop the angular momentum. That or lose power before and after. Especially since I don't think using the angle of heel is an option here

 

weta27

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My observation is that it's not just the speed of the turn that is going to help, it's also stance through the corner.

INEOS is probably the best example from the other boats of riding quite high through the turn and then taking a second or two to re-establish equilibrium on the new foil and the ride height they are looking for in a straight line.

Patriot doesn't go in as high but she also has an ungainly turning stance, often nose down and leaning in to the corner.

Te Rehutai and Luna Rossa have a more flat-to-the-water turning stance and look more balanced and stable coming out of the turn, more so TR than LR.

It's this period immediately after the turn has been completed where the "sit-downs" often happen..

Could TR and LR be using more cant in their working foil arm, so the foil is providing more lateral force through the turn, and to stay low? Perhaps TR have the choreography of this worked out better than LR.

LR occasionally does some real snappy turns so they are capable of it, but perhaps not so easy in a light breeze?

 
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JALhazmat

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My observation is that it's not just the speed of the turn that is going to help, it's also stance through the corner.

INEOS is probably the best example from the other boats of riding quite high through the turn and then taking a second or two to re-establish equilibrium on the new foil and the ride height they are looking for in a straight line.

Patriot doesn't go in as high but she also has an ungainly turning stance, often nose down and leaning in to the corner.

Te Rehutai and Luna Rossa have a more flat-to-the-water turning stance and look more balanced and stable coming out of the turn, more so TR than LR.

It's this period immediately after the turn has been completed where the "sit-downs" often happen..

Could TR and LR be using more cant in their working foil arm, so the foil is providing more lateral force through the turn, and to stay low? Perhaps TR have the choreography of this worked out better than LR.

LR occasionally does some real snappy turns so they are capable of it, but perhaps not so easy in a light breeze?
I agree on the Ineos turns, the most recent footage seems to link the re established equilibrium with the swapping of sides of either the flight controller or main trimmer

if you look closely at this swap, it is being done very very slowly with no urgency to the body language or movement.  its fair to say that its either they cant be fucked or its deliberately slow.

given the people in those roles I would edge towards deliberate. they have also shown much faster smoother maneuvers previously than they seem to be doing  in close proximity to the others.

LR have no swap/minimal swap thing going on and NZ are scurrying around flat out on the side swap 

 

Xlot

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  ^ And team swag is in line: a LR beanie (which is the only thing I might consider without looking ridiculous) - 100$ US!

 

Horn Rock

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Ineos look fine in a steady breeze on what look to be largish area foils. Whether they're comparatively fast is questionable though. I get the impression they've dialed back thoughts on pushing the design boundaries. Settling for a let's just get around the track clean and hope the others don't. 

 
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