INEOS Team GB

[Aqua Firma 01]

LR did improve a lot in a week. I've posted the performance data somewhere. Of course, INEOS keeps developing, too. The question is when does each team peak? INEOS may have installed all their go fast gear they had in the pipeline after their horrible showing in the ACWS, while I have a feeling LR held back on some of the stuff on purpose. Maybe they wanted to sail in the semis for more race practice.

Well INEOS have said that they focused solely on solving the problems they had at the ACWS before the RR, rather than including the upgrades that were in the pipeline. This is why the extra break was so important to them. We've already seen a significant development on the foils so we will see what comes in addition over the next fortnight. 

It would be good to see a comparison between LR in RR and in the Semis. My feeling is that they have added a smidge to their upwind VMGs but most gains have come in their downwind speed, although even that isn't spectacular rather they have just got to the level of others. If we're honest it was very difficult to make real conclusions on LR from the semis and realistically AM lost most of the time per race in maneouvres, including tacks and gybes but most clearly in mark roundings and bear aways where they were really struggling to handle the boat. 

 

[strider470]

They needed to! Let's not forget that not only did they lose 3-0 to Ineos, but they were being soundly beaten by AM when AM had their big crash.

I find that highly unlikely, because if Oracle taught us anything, it is that you keep developing right up until the very end. I would be very surprised if Ineos hasn't got more things to try and if they win through to the main event, I suspect they will have more again. I think that also applies to LR

I think that would have been a really stupid move. They had no idea whether AM would come back the same, stronger or weaker after their crash. Before the crash, AM looked like a real threat to LR (what was the lead when they crashed?). It seemed pretty clear that if AM came back the same as before the crash, there were conditions in which they could beat LR comfortably. Because of that, why would you take any risks by leaving things in the boatshed when you couldn't reconfigure during the semis?

Their boat handling was better, but that could have been a function of improved performance as they looked more stable. I also thought their tactical processes improved as they used Sibello far more and improved communications

You forget that during the race of the capsize, Luna Rossa had severe issues that influenced their performance. I wouldn't use that race as a benchmark.

 

[enigmatically2]

Maybe they wanted to sail in the semis for more race practice.

Not a chance. That is obvious from logic, their demeanour.

I have no doubt LR have more things to go on. There is also no doubt that GB do also.

GB have actually said that they put fewer of mods on in run up to RRs because they had to solve foil deformation. That makes sense. It makes no sense they have none left. If you had time to put on mods earlier, you would, because then you could find more.

I could see people sandbagging for ACWS (though I'm not sure anyone did) but no way in RRs.

I haven't seen your data, what % improvement do you think they got from RRs to semi's?

 

[dullers]

LR did improve a lot in a week. I've posted the performance data somewhere. Of course, INEOS keeps developing, too. The question is when does each team peak? INEOS may have installed all their go fast gear they had in the pipeline after their horrible showing in the ACWS, while I have a feeling LR held back on some of the stuff on purpose. Maybe they wanted to sail in the semis for more race practice.

No one would race in the round robin to risk being eliminated. You would go the route of INEOS.  I also think that every available improvement would go on the boat to win the PRADA cup.  No point having improvements left on the shelf if you get eliminated.  Of course you will have improvements going on the boat from lessons learnt up until your last race that come after Prada as nothing stands still.

 

[dullers]

Not a chance. That is obvious from logic, their demeanour.

I have no doubt LR have more things to go on. There is also no doubt that GB do also.

GB have actually said that they put fewer of mods on in run up to RRs because they had to solve foil deformation. That makes sense. It makes no sense they have none left. If you had time to put on mods earlier, you would, because then you could find more.

I could see people sandbagging for ACWS (though I'm not sure anyone did) but no way in RRs.

I haven't seen your data, what % improvement do you think they got from RRs to semi's?

INEOS are the hardest boat to judge in terms of speed. Their figures are consistently  just above PRADA up until race 4or 5 (Boat speed)(I cant remember how many they did.). How much is that to do with Giles and Ben finding a better route around the course? Tom S was interviewed by "Girl buys a boat" or whatever the name is and made comparisons to both INEOS and PRADAS afterguards. His money is on INEOS though he is diplomatic about it and he has sailed with all involved. 

 

[mako23]

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

 

[teamvmg]

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

Yes, our spies will serve us well....release them!

 

[Living_in_a_box]

I guess it matters then how close they are in speed to LR/ETNZ. Are smaller incremental changes going to be enough?

Not saying they aren't, but interesting to see in coming weeks...

Ineos have a history if incremental gains on their cycling side, so is a methodology that has merit. It would be fascinating to have an inside view into what the teams are looking at and how they balance keeping the performance they have with making steps forward as I guess sometimes you have to go backwards before finding a route further forward. 

 

[Raptorsailor]

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

No more mods allowed after measurement? Or is it a time prohibitive to remeasure? I foresee big changes from everyone in the next few days. 

 

[Amati]

Do they measure all boats at the same time?

 

[mako23]

No more mods allowed after measurement? Or is it a time prohibitive to remeasure? I foresee big changes from everyone in the next few days. 

No more mods on hardware on boat

 

[accnick]

No more mods allowed after measurement? Or is it a time prohibitive to remeasure? I foresee big changes from everyone in the next few days. 

So you don't have to guess, attached is the NOR and Conditions for the Prada Cup.  See particularly article 7, which tells you what must be in the required declaration due 1600 NZ time on February 8.

If you read all of article 7, you will see everything you need to know on this topic.

The Conditions for the Match have essentially the same requirements for the declaration and timing of the declaration

View attachment COR Notice 19 to Competitors - Notice of Race and Conditions for the Prada Cup - sent.pdf

 

[pluscount]

Former American Magic fanboy signing in to switch sides.  Go team INEOS!

If we win, I'll [SIZE=12pt] petition Bidnen to restore Churchill's bust to the White House![/SIZE]

 

[uflux]

Both LR and Ineos have 8 days to lock down their design before measurement. It will be interesting to watch video of these two boats in the following week. 

I am more of interested to see what ETNZ is up to. Not much news about their improvements lately

 

[dullers]

I am more of interested to see what ETNZ is up to. Not much news about their improvements lately

We wont know until first race i suppose.

 

[nroose]

When Jimmy bore away 14 degrees, its possible he started to get a piece of him but that broke rule 16

I sort of wonder how rule 16 applies to these boats. how much time do you need to give them? Do then need to be able to avoid while staying on the foils? Earlier in the series, Jimmy dipped a starboard tacker when he might have been able to cross ahead. That was upwind. If there is a close downwind cross, how much time do they need and how much distance?

 

[LCS Carbon]

I sort of wonder how rule 16 applies to these boats. how much time do you need to give them? Do then need to be able to avoid while staying on the foils? Earlier in the series, Jimmy dipped a starboard tacker when he might have been able to cross ahead. That was upwind. If there is a close downwind cross, how much time do they need and how much distance?

It would seem so....

 

[Aqua Firma 01]

Quite strange lighting and hard to tell, but it looks like the port foil is a slight modification from the foils used in the round robin, with some area taken from the leading edge, whereas the starboard foil seems to be a more dramatic modification with significant are taken from the trailing edge as well as the leading edge. Or... is this a trick of lighting and perspective? 

From Ineos' instagram..

 

[nroose]

22 minutes ago, Flags said:

It would seem so....

Circle! This was the video that started this... I was talking about wondering how they decide what is enough for the give way boat to do. Jimmy did duck at least one time when it was close. Do we let Ben aggressively take risks and then invoke 16, but everyone else has to play it safe? Or is there some way the RC knows that this is fundamentally different? In fleet racing, of course you can't change course. In match racing, you can, and there is some unspoken amount of time they get. But in this situation, I am just not sure of how long that is. I guess it's kinda clear in this situation they would not have collided and there was not enough time. But where are the lines?

 

[Sailbydate]

Whoops. Senior moment.