INEOS Team GB

[Board skiff]

That sounds fair - I can't say I was following this mcuh until Xmas. As an Engineer, you have to be very careful with any sort of analysis or simulator prediction, even in this day and age. Or maybe prticularly in this day and age given its prevalence due to availability of computing power. I guess it sounds that in the absence of much "real" validation data, he had to just go with the sims stuff - his discomfort with this probably improves his judgement to my mind.

I think that you have to give designers free reign else they will come up with stuff that is derivative. But equally its good to be able to hold them to account with evidence from real world testing.

Whenever a high value decision is based upon computer simulation - whether that be AC75 manoeuvre simulation, financial modelling or epidemiology studies - it is essential that the decision maker (Ben in this case) understands the scope, limitations, simplifications and assumptions behind that model so that he can understand the validity of the answers the simulation produces. Ideally there is documentation describing the phenomena included and the maths used to represent that, so that it can be agreed before modelling commences that the model will be fit for purpose. This is even more important in cases like this where it is not possible to validate the model with real world data until it is too late. 
Either Ineos’ simulations were not valid or the design team did not have the imagination to improve on what they came up with. The Prada mainsail system is neat but for £150m you hope the idea of a boomless setup at least occurred to Ineos.

 

[shanghaisailor]

They should race a sailGP boat just for fun?  See if they will still claim the fastest?

Didn't they already do that in Sydney last year?

 

[bat]

I think that you have to give designers free reign else they will come up with stuff that is derivative.

Free reign is fine if the design team have a certain level of experience in the concept on the table.
As the new class was essentially a blank sheet of paper with foil systems and type massively different to the previous AC50s, were efforts made to source design minds more experienced in the foil types to be used? There are some very successful designers experienced in flapped foil design on their UK doorstep that could of enhanced an objective design team. You would hope they were consulted?

 In the reality of a lack of real world data and only relying on simulation, it was a big gamble to go with the designer chosen from the last AC. Couple with a CEO that headed losing teams off the pace in 2 of the last 3 cups (Alinghi Cat/Dog and Oracle 2013, 2017), and a team built on exceptional talent that may not have the high performance ‘feel’ or objectivity through feel over a one design mindset to challenge a poor design path. 

A great effort by the team to sail a boat that was always sadly on the back foot. Exceptional sailing against opponents making mistakes on a gusty shifty, duck pond course made it look far better than it was in the round robins.

 

[Daniel Holman]

Free reign is fine if the design team have a certain level of experience in the concept on the table.
As the new class was essentially a blank sheet of paper with foil systems and type massively different to the previous AC50s, were efforts made to source design minds more experienced in the foil types to be used? There are some very successful designers experienced in flapped foil design on their UK doorstep that could of enhanced an objective design team. You would hope they were consulted?

 In the reality of a lack of real world data and only relying on simulation, it was a big gamble to go with the designer chosen from the last AC. Couple with a CEO that headed losing teams off the pace in 2 of the last 3 cups (Alinghi Cat/Dog and Oracle 2013, 2017), and a team built on exceptional talent that may not have the high performance ‘feel’ or objectivity through feel over a one design mindset to challenge a poor design path.  

A great effort by the team to sail a boat that was always sadly on the back foot. Exceptional sailing against opponents making mistakes on a gusty shifty, duck pond course made it look far better than it was in the round robins.

I accept all of that. I'm not sure how the transfer market goes with this sort of thing, to what extent that any particular guy or guys will assure you of the right result. But I understand that in proposing the rule, TNZ and to some extent Prada had a headstart in both design and also appropriate personnel.

 

[Paddywackery]

Sailing a slower boat doesn't make anybody appear very smart. Not even Ben and Giles. Give them equal terms and everything changes. But it's true that maybe he weared too many hats and couldn't be 100% focused.

To my mind, he has just looked out of sorts and not at the top of his game. Lots of problems to sort out and that brings pressure. 

 

[Paddywackery]

During the press conference Ben pretty much ruled out helping the Italians.  If ETNZ win they have the boat and the base already in NZ. So makes financial sense to help the Kiwis 

Also Team GB must hate LR in they way they acted in the Prada Cup

Not so sure, now that the match is settled and with it any gamesmanship, all options available. 

 

[The_Alchemist]

What a lot of BS! ETNZ were well under way in their B2 build long before anyone saw Team Brexit B2.

Sorry, I forgot about the NZ sailing gods....  I was talking about UK B1

 

[Daniel Holman]

Whenever a high value decision is based upon computer simulation - whether that be AC75 manoeuvre simulation, financial modelling or epidemiology studies - it is essential that the decision maker (Ben in this case) understands the scope, limitations, simplifications and assumptions behind that model so that he can understand the validity of the answers the simulation produces. Ideally there is documentation describing the phenomena included and the maths used to represent that, so that it can be agreed before modelling commences that the model will be fit for purpose. This is even more important in cases like this where it is not possible to validate the model with real world data until it is too late. 
Either Ineos’ simulations were not valid or the design team did not have the imagination to improve on what they came up with. The Prada mainsail system is neat but for £150m you hope the idea of a boomless setup at least occurred to Ineos.

All great points as ever. 2 things - firstly as an example do you think Ben was the final signatory over say the boom vs no boom situation? I think I saw no boom on B1 pic today and it looked gash, so if it performed badly,  one could see that a sailor's bias based on those early forays would understandably be to park that option. Absolutely they would maintain a "decision register" with this sort of thing in it, but assumptions and limitations are always going to be present in simulation, but its a tough gig for engineers, let alone to sailors to understand and pass judgement on how sound the assumptions are.

 

[Paddywackery]

Well us Brits had a little bit of a set back this morning. Well the only way out of this pickle is to have a cup of tea and the full Monty. Done in official yellow.

170 years of solving problems with a cup of tea.

View attachment 430125

No more likes to hand out Dullers but this gets two. I had exactly the same having stayed up and it’s just the job. Commiserations on losing, brave fight and good on you for your good grace to the winners LRPP. 

 

[bat]

I accept all of that. I'm not sure how the transfer market goes with this sort of thing, to what extent that any particular guy or guys will assure you of the right result. But I understand that in proposing the rule, TNZ and to some extent Prada had a headstart in both design and also appropriate personnel.

I don’t think there are any guarantees as you say on transfer, but possibly a better idea to involve and evaluate the level of knowledge crossover than dismiss it when starting a fresh project? Given what we see on ETNZs foils they believe there is a crossover. Time will tell if that’s true.

Lets hope they get the chance to put it right.

 

[Kiwing]

Didn't they already do that in Sydney last year?

Not AC75 verse F50?  I guess it is no contest? The AC75 would wipe the floor around the cans?

 

[The_Alchemist]

Whenever a high value decision is based upon computer simulation - whether that be AC75 manoeuvre simulation, financial modelling or epidemiology studies - it is essential that the decision maker (Ben in this case) understands the scope, limitations, simplifications and assumptions behind that model so that he can understand the validity of the answers the simulation produces. Ideally there is documentation describing the phenomena included and the maths used to represent that, so that it can be agreed before modelling commences that the model will be fit for purpose. This is even more important in cases like this where it is not possible to validate the model with real world data until it is too late. 
Either Ineos’ simulations were not valid or the design team did not have the imagination to improve on what they came up with. The Prada mainsail system is neat but for £150m you hope the idea of a boomless setup at least occurred to Ineos.

That is the plan, but this cup cycle was in a totally untested concept with no real world data.  The rules were set up to restrict the ability to get really world data to validate the models.  LR and NZ had a head start with the design and a model that was fairly accurate in predicting the performance of the boat.  AM and UK had to start from scratch on their models and I think UK in particular, had problems gaining confidence in the design results.  UK B1 was designed in a short period of time, but it was not design to be as slow as it turned out to be on the water.  As we now find out, the tuning of the boat, subtle changes in the techniques and trim can give a substantial change in performance.  Most likely UK B1 was not as slow as they thought it was, because they lacked the experience to tune it properly.  But the disappointment in the B1 design caused them to make such radical changes to B2.  B2 looked more like a collections of ideas instead of a progression of design.  Like Max had said in a recent interview that early on they were sailing fast and then observed AM going much faster.  LR asked "how do they do that?"  LR said, they had the tools, but weren't using them properly and then tuned the boat to go faster... Most of the speed gains were from improvements in technique.

 

[dullers]

No more likes to hand out Dullers but this gets two. I had exactly the same having stayed up and it’s just the job. Commiserations on losing, brave fight and good on you for your good grace to the winners LRPP. 

I have had some good fry ups over there!

 

[EYESAILOR]

If ETNZ successfully defend the cup and the rumors of Ineos stepping up as CoR then it sounds like the AC75 stays in place as Ben did say in his post race interview that the boat was fantastic and ideal for the AC.

Once again......Thank you to Ineos and the Brits for putting up such a great fight and the incredible comeback from the ACWS.  Better luck next time.  I hope the US can field a worthy entry.

The problem with AC is that it is so expensive and I dont know how many teams can continue to be funded when there is only one winner amd so many losers.

 

[JJD]

Any idea what went on here?

 

[accnick]

The problem with AC is that it is so expensive and I dont know how many teams can continue to be funded when there is only one winner amd so many losers.

And that, of course, is a big part of the appeal of the AC in a nutshell. "There is no second."

 

[EYESAILOR]

8 minutes ago, JJD said:

Unguarded moment.

His boss made a very classy statement.

Lets judge Ben by his comments congratulating the Prada sailors for their win.

 

[JJD]

Unguarded moment.

His boss made a very classy statement.

Lets judge Ben by his comments congratulating the Prada sailors for their win.

I wasn’t judging Ben. Asking if anyone know what went on with invite to the final press conference. Ben and Giles were in attendance. 

 

[rh3000]

SBTJ did run a couple practice starts against OR one morning in Bermuda, right after they lost the series to AR. They packed up later that day, for good. 

Firstly, @Rennmaus point still stands.

Secondly - Really!?!? The last time you tried that angle you said '"The few days of 'starting practice' SBTJ helped with? Gimme a break...""

Which was already not the full story, now you've cracked it down to just one day of some starting games?

Do you hope that if you keep chipping away at the truth that it will eventually dissappear?

 

[rh3000]

1 hour ago, JJD said:

He looks a few jars in...

It appears they had to gatecrash the final presser.

There's definately an undertone here, and to be honest I feel like there was more to the ACE/CoR debacle than what is being aired in public.

I never commented on the hypocracy of CoR in that presser, where they appeared to be disgusted at the thought that ETNZ may have already agreed on hip pocket challenge with Ineos, is if that wasn't exactly what happened with LR in Bermuda and the only reason Francesco was sitting in his CoR seat in the first place.

Do we know if ACE was even invited to the Covid debacle presser? Maybe thats why they droppped a press release? Somethings afoot...