INEOS Team GB

Xlot

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- he finally explains what the INEOS problem was for the Xmas Cup. It was the foils, they put cameras on the upper side, which was logical since that’s where cavitation or ventilation could be expected. Only as a last resort they looked at the lower side and discovered that, in addition to the normal positive pressure areas, there was an area that actually went negative! This was centered around a “lip”, didn’t quite understand where
Coincidence?

Cavitation on underside of the leading edge could be happening at high speed, but I'd think they'd design their sections so that wouldn't happen, either.  A little trailing edge up flap deflection, compensated for by a little bow-up change in pitch attitude would cure it.  

 

Horn Rock

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Innovation in the grinding space, whilst pretty cool, is not where the cup is won or lost. Worrying for Ineos, is that going into the ACWS they knew so little about their foils, and the issues they had. It all points to the haphazard development from the design team. If they don't sort that, they're never going to win the Cup, no matter how much cash Jim throws into it. Their debrief will identify their design issues, so you'd expect some overhaul there.

 

MaxHugen

Super Anarchist
Innovation in the grinding space, whilst pretty cool, is not where the cup is won or lost. Worrying for Ineos, is that going into the ACWS they knew so little about their foils, and the issues they had. It all points to the haphazard development from the design team. If they don't sort that, they're never going to win the Cup, no matter how much cash Jim throws into it. Their debrief will identify their design issues, so you'd expect some overhaul there.
It's a bit like they got together a bunch of smart people, each with their own ideas, and sort of jumbled it together without first coming to a group consensus on design priorities.

The foils had me wondering what was going on. I have suspicions that the W shape was influenced by the F1 group, as I think it came out when the F1 people got involved, but who knows. I could never see the point of it really, and thought that big old hinge (if that's what it was) sticking out on the underside was pretty horrible.

I do hope they return for AC37, with a good chief designer who can pull a design team together.

 

Woolfy

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Having Ben steer this boat is like putting your hooker on the wing. Its not going to be a winning move. The team should've atleast trialled an apparent wind sailor on the wheel. Ben is a great sailor, put him in charge of any slow boat, but he's not a winger.
Probably a bad choice of analogies there... Dane Coles (AB's hooker for all you none rugby fans) has run a few in from the wing.

But I agree Ben may not be the ideal choice for helm on an apparent wind driven rocket.

 

Sailbydate

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Look, I don't approve of cheating or tilting the playing field too much (like the NYYC did in the olden days), but Ben needs to pull his panties up.

They lost. They lost badly in Bermuda and they lost here.

Rather than calling for the AC to be run like a kindergarten competition where everyone gets a medal, he needs to face facts.

For whatever reason, the team created an inferior boat BOTH times and I doubt that team in its current incarnation could have won the cup even with all the advantages of defender.

What concerns me is that if they look for blame outside the team, they will miss the opportunity to be honest about what was wrong inside the team and history will repeat.
Why do all these fucking $quillionaires want to reengineer the America's Cup? 

They can't bloody help themselves. Seems to me that, Sir James has picked the wrong regatta. More OD, lower costs, more entrants, level playing fields, yada yada yada. He might be a lot better off buying a SailGP team. 

Or, he should learn to play the AC game and get on with winning the fucking thing.

 
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Horn Rock

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The foils had me wondering what was going on. I have suspicions that the W shape was influenced by the F1 group,
The W's were another tangent they went off on, down the rabbit hole and into a blind alley. They weren't related to any of their other foils - not the incremental process we saw from AM and LR. They were a hail Mary from a team looking to fluke onto some sort of game changer. Surprised that such a well funded teams development process, was quite frankly so amateur. Grant Simmer was bought in to get things back on track, but the damage had already been done, and the time lost. They never recovered from their initial missteps.

There was gossip in here way back, that things weren't right within the team - significant signings leaving, low morale blah, blah, blah......I guess you could argue, that despite the obvious hiccups, they still made the PC final, and had a decent purple patch during the RR. In the end I think it was a mixed effort from them - scored a few hits, but loads of misses as well. Did they learn enough to build a solid base to move forward? Or are they still scrambling around erratically, trying to find the formula for the cohesion required to win the Cup? Still a lot of doubt with these guys......  

 

jaysper

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Why do all these fucking $quillionaires want to reengineer the America's Cup? 

They can't bloody help themselves. Seems to me that, Sir James has picked the wrong regatta. More OD, lower costs, more entrants, level playing fields, yada yada yada. He might be a lot better off buying a SailGP team. 

Or, he should learn to play the AC game and get on with winning the fucking thing.
Well, he can re-engineer the fuck out of all he wants......if he wins it.

But even then, as Lazza learnt the hard way, that re-engineering lasts precisely ZERO FUCKING SECONDS after you lose it.

 

JALhazmat

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Why do all these fucking $quillionaires want to reengineer the America's Cup? 

They can't bloody help themselves. Seems to me that, Sir James has picked the wrong regatta. More OD, lower costs, more entrants, level playing fields, yada yada yada. He might be a lot better off buying a SailGP team. 

Or, he should learn to play the AC game and get on with winning the fucking thing.
He did, and they smashed all the apparent wind sailing gods first time out.. 

 

GBH

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It's a bit like they got together a bunch of smart people, each with their own ideas, and sort of jumbled it together without first coming to a group consensus on design priorities.

The foils had me wondering what was going on. I have suspicions that the W shape was influenced by the F1 group, as I think it came out when the F1 people got involved, but who knows. I could never see the point of it really, and thought that big old hinge (if that's what it was) sticking out on the underside was pretty horrible.

I do hope they return for AC37, with a good chief designer who can pull a design team together.
Dead right - they have a team of great technicians, but no real designer amongst them that can separate the wood from the trees.  Holroyd certainly isn't the guy, and neither was Claughton for Bermuda.  

So you get design by committee and end up with a camel.

It's no secret that a design team needs to have an Adrian Newey who can see how it all really fits together and cut off time and $$$ wasting excursions.  It's been a failing of pretty much every UK team in the past and others too.

 

JALhazmat

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Dead right - they have a team of great technicians, but no real designer amongst them that can separate the wood from the trees.  Holroyd certainly isn't the guy, and neither was Claughton for Bermuda.  

So you get design by committee and end up with a camel.

It's no secret that a design team needs to have an Adrian Newey who can see how it all really fits together and cut off time and $$$ wasting excursions.  It's been a failing of pretty much every UK team in the past and others too.
You mean they need someone that’s literally never designed a boat  before? 

 

JonRowe

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I hope they keep Holroyd, he's thrown some balls out of the box, and with this experience will get better as a designer. Starting from scratch is not the go here in my opinion.

 
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alphafb552

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Another point from the Benjamin Muyl interview that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

In the early stages of boat 2, the design team picked up on the need to sail the hull as close to the water as possible - the sailing team however pushed back saying it was not possible to control flight that accurately. So boat 2 was also focused on the transition phase rather than pure flight, instead of pushing the sailors to find a way to optimally fly the boat

Of course we now see that low flying is perfectly possible...

Main takeaway: too much focus on hydrodynamics, not enough on aero

Also indicated that the sailing team was not performing at 100% during the Prada cup final...

 

winchfodder

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Why do all these fucking $quillionaires want to reengineer the America's Cup? 

They can't bloody help themselves. Seems to me that, Sir James has picked the wrong regatta. More OD, lower costs, more entrants, level playing fields, yada yada yada. He might be a lot better off buying a SailGP team. 

Or, he should learn to play the AC game and get on with winning the fucking thing.


Well, he can re-engineer the fuck out of all he wants......if he wins it.

But even then, as Lazza learnt the hard way, that re-engineering lasts precisely ZERO FUCKING SECONDS after you lose it.
Excellent. The AC does wonders of exposing the arrogance and egotism of many of the billionaires. 

 
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