INEOS Team GB

nroose

Super Anarchist
5,314
331
Berkeley
Lack of Brilliance?  Maybe lack of experience but they will be better next time.
Experience is only as good as what you learn from it...

I mean...

Ainslie
Scott
Simmer
Holroyd

I am guessing they would have said they had enough experience when they put together the team.

But also, I was kind of tongue in cheek when I said "brilliance". Clearly I am not qualified to judge them. And to me it seemed like they were damn close. As were AM.

 

winchfodder

Super Anarchist
1,838
356
Carolina, USA
Experience is only as good as what you learn from it...

I mean...

Ainslie
Scott
Simmer
Holroyd

I am guessing they would have said they had enough experience when they put together the team.

But also, I was kind of tongue in cheek when I said "brilliance". Clearly I am not qualified to judge them. And to me it seemed like they were damn close. As were AM.
I suspect Simmer is just there for the money. Ben would be better off with someone with a bit more belief. As for the design side you can't just leave it up to the technicians like Holroyd,  someone with sailing experience needs to point the techies in the right direction (and turn them back from the wrong one before it goes too far).

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,172
1,295
Wellington
You will only be better if Sir Ben takes a step back into management and leaves the sailing team to younger sailors.  Those sailors should be the customers of the design team with Sir Ben taking a back seat.  Managing the whole thing in a chairman of the board type management role?  IMHO
I don't see that as the problem Kiwing, in fact quite the opposite.

I don't believe he has any kind of problem with sailing these boats.

It is his position in leadership that I would question.

Whether it is because he is naturally a poor leader or that he had too much on his plate, something just isn't working there.

Get him to stick to the handles, presumably providing the leadership to the sailing crew and things might get better.

Imagine if GD was to be on the handles or Burling to be running the whole show. Total freaking disaster I am sure, discounting the fact that GD was never a particularly awesome sailor.

 

nroose

Super Anarchist
5,314
331
Berkeley
I suspect Simmer is just there for the money. Ben would be better off with someone with a bit more belief. As for the design side you can't just leave it up to the technicians like Holroyd,  someone with sailing experience needs to point the techies in the right direction (and turn them back from the wrong one before it goes too far).
Whatever you think about Simmer (I kind of agree that he came across as having a great time just being on the team and didn't really have any fire), the point was that he has experience, and that it matters what you learn from your experience.

I don't know what interactions the sailing team had with the design team, but certainly Holroyd has enough experience to know what he thinks about that. And again, it's about whether he has learned important things from his experience.

And all of that is kinda what I meant by "brilliance" with my tongue in my cheek.

 

alphafb552

Super Anarchist
2,914
629
Fryslan boppe!
Listening to the Benjamin Muyl interview (unfortunately for the Anglo-Saxon speakers out there in French) there definitely is a subtext of lack of communication and cohesion within the whole Ineos organisation, eg design team receiving pushback from sailing team on ride height. He also said that the whole team had lots of bright and good ideas, but didn't have the culture to listen to each other, take the good ideas on board and develop them coherently - which in his words is the major strength of ETNZ...

Having done several projects for different English companies, I can't say I'm surprised to hear this, having had similar experiences in various environments - seems to me there's a cultural issue here B)

 

Rennmaus

Super Anarchist
10,555
2,085
Listening to the Benjamin Muyl interview (unfortunately for the Anglo-Saxon speakers out there in French) there definitely is a subtext of lack of communication and cohesion within the whole Ineos organisation, eg design team receiving pushback from sailing team on ride height. He also said that the whole team had lots of bright and good ideas, but didn't have the culture to listen to each other, take the good ideas on board and develop them coherently - which in his words is the major strength of ETNZ...

Having done several projects for different English companies, I can't say I'm surprised to hear this, having had similar experiences in various environments - seems to me there's a cultural issue here B)
You certainly have a point here. But one shouldn't forget for how long ETNZ and Luna Rossa are already around compared to Ben's team.

 

Tornado-Cat

Super Anarchist
16,290
1,025
Listening to the Benjamin Muyl interview (unfortunately for the Anglo-Saxon speakers out there in French) there definitely is a subtext of lack of communication and cohesion within the whole Ineos organisation, eg design team receiving pushback from sailing team on ride height. He also said that the whole team had lots of bright and good ideas, but didn't have the culture to listen to each other, take the good ideas on board and develop them coherently - which in his words is the major strength of ETNZ...

Having done several projects for different English companies, I can't say I'm surprised to hear this, having had similar experiences in various environments - seems to me there's a cultural issue here B)
About that point he said that the NZ team is "old" which is an advantage for a good communication.

 

dullers

Super Anarchist
1,472
500
Englandshire
Sir Ben will get his chance to shine again in the upcoming, SailGP regatta. Looking forward to seeing what he's got - no excuses this time.
Did you see him in the last sail GP?  I dont think the worlds most successful Olympic sailor has to prove himself to the likes of you or I. He has several gold excuses already. No doubt people like Churchill would not be up to the mark on here either. He is already the greatest sailor in any generation. Remember he has already won an AC.

 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.”
― Winston S. Churchill

 

dullers

Super Anarchist
1,472
500
Englandshire
Experience is only as good as what you learn from it...

I mean...

Ainslie
Scott
Simmer
Holroyd

I am guessing they would have said they had enough experience when they put together the team.

But also, I was kind of tongue in cheek when I said "brilliance". Clearly I am not qualified to judge them. And to me it seemed like they were damn close. As were AM.
Well Prada have been trying to win for the last 20 years. INEOS is a relatively new team in AC circles. Thought the "Swiss" showed how it could be done in a short time. The more complicated the boats get the more advantage to the defender.

 

winchfodder

Super Anarchist
1,838
356
Carolina, USA
Well Prada have been trying to win for the last 20 years. INEOS is a relatively new team in AC circles. Thought the "Swiss" showed how it could be done in a short time. The more complicated the boats get the more advantage to the defender.
I am thinking too many excuses. Didn't BA work with ETNZ on one challenge, then came on late to help Larry and Spithill in SF, then spent upwards of $250÷ million on two very slow-boat challenges in 2017 and 2020/1. 

Enough for me that he needs to get better help.

 

MaxHugen

Super Anarchist
Listening to the Benjamin Muyl interview (unfortunately for the Anglo-Saxon speakers out there in French) there definitely is a subtext of lack of communication and cohesion within the whole Ineos organisation, eg design team receiving pushback from sailing team on ride height. He also said that the whole team had lots of bright and good ideas, but didn't have the culture to listen to each other, take the good ideas on board and develop them coherently - which in his words is the major strength of ETNZ...

Having done several projects for different English companies, I can't say I'm surprised to hear this, having had similar experiences in various environments - seems to me there's a cultural issue here B)
Found this in Oz as well. Some very bright (and successful) people can be rather prickly, and reluctant to consider views other than their own.

I quickly found that my team building skills were less than I would have wished. :(

 

Sailbydate

Super Anarchist
11,854
3,427
Kohimarama
Hmmmm. I wonder about the INEOS Team UK culture too.

For example, I wonder how much listening goes on, as opposed to how much speech-making? Freddie Carr says, Sir Ben is a rousing speech-maker - all well and good, but is he listening as well? Maybe, maybe not.

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,533
755
Sydney ex London
Forget the discussion about whether Ainslie should have done better for one moment.

There is a basic truthy that the defender gave themselves a big advantage this time around through the development of the rule. The amount of design work they did before the rule was announced was hugely significant. It had to be because they had to prove that the new concept worked. We also know they did significant work on the rig (there is even videos of them testing 2 skin mains. This put ETNZ a long way ahead of all the teams. The CoR also got an advantage, but not as big, because ETNZ shared a lot of data with them to prove that the rule worked. These are facts, beyond any argument.

I don't think there has ever been another case of the defender coming up with a new rule on their own. Even the evil Ellison hired an outside designer to formulate rules for his defences.

The question is whether it was fair for the defender to do this. My problem with it is not whether it is fair or not, but the fact that Dalton was very vocal about Alhingi trying to "steal" a big advantage by writing the rule themselves. He suggested that was one of the main reasons they needed a tame (illegal) CoR, because no proper CoR would let a defender get away with it. Then, as soon as he wins, he does exactly what he said was so wrong. If he had said nothing on the subject, I would have little problem with this, but Dalton is a manipulative hypocrite, and yes, I do have an issue with him!

As for fairness, this is the AC. Is anything fair? If I were a defender, I would rather be known for stacking the deck as much as I could within the DoG than be known as being a hypocrite, which is what Dalton clearly is. 

 

jaysper

Super Anarchist
10,172
1,295
Wellington
Found this in Oz as well. Some very bright (and successful) people can be rather prickly, and reluctant to consider views other than their own.

I quickly found that my team building skills were less than I would have wished. :(
I won't hire people whose ears are useful only for spectacles or earrings.

You can be as smart as you like, but if you can't learn then your no fucking good to anyone.

 

coercivity

Member
63
6
Auckland
I got a bit of flack at the last AC for criticizing the BAR Team as the challenge is a team event and should work well if a bus intervened with the top person in that team.

Do you think ETNZ would lose if any member was unable through some event to not be there, its the sum of many capable parts, and it would be slower but not a lot and not for long.

BAR was a team but an inverted pyramid pinning Ben down. As great a sailor as he is he will not be on the tiller next time. Winners are less than 40 and Burling at 30 may only have one more left, so it may end up being 35 next time around.    

 




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