INEOS Team GB

C

coercivity

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The point is BA will be slower in 3 years and PB will be faster.

In 12 years both will be slower than the young guns, organize the succession early or the team will die.

The original name was BAR an ego driven name destined to die.

 
mako23

mako23

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coercivity said:
The point is BA will be slower in 3 years and PB will be faster.

In 12 years both will be slower than the young guns, organize the succession early or the team will die.

The original name was BAR an ego driven name destined to die.
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I think PB will have one or two more cups in him and then he will decline. No one can stay at the top forever and the pressure will eventually get to him. ETNZ should start with a PB apprentice so that if PB dropped dead or left to go to another syndicate, they won’t be left with no alternatives. The Aussies for example have a couple of good skippers. 
 

Ben on the other hand is, is past his best. He’s 43 now and that’s not young in this game.  His reactions are too slow and yes he didn’t crash his boat much, he would have real problem with a boat like ETNZ had were lightning reactions are required. The Ineos boat was docile in comparison 

 
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I

IPLore

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mako23 said:
Being a slower boat doesn’t matter in the start, and in the starts Ben was made to look very poor compared to Spithill. Also their boat wasn’t a dog and did win a race when Ben did win the start. 
I accept LR was a better boat, but it’s bit of a stretch to call the boat a dog.  Remember it did win races against LR and AM.  A dog wins very few races and that’s not the case win the Ineos boat. However if you raced Ineos against ETNZ they would of been slaughtered 7 zip

If Ben was racing ETNZ or LR in identical AC75 boats he would lose, due to his poor record in the starting box 
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In 11 races in the Prada Cup , Ineos vs LR : 

BA won 6 starts.  Of those 6, they "owned" two.  

JS won 4 starts (of these owned 2) one of those was a light air start where Ineos simply could not get on foils and LR was foiling. 

1 start was a draw because both boats were OCS. Jimmy was in a dominant position but made an error by being ocs. 

 The evidence does not support Ben being inferior in the starts. 

RR1 Race 2 Ben owned the start , Took LR low in the box, tacked to port and led by over a boat length at start  BA

RR 2 Race 2 Jimmy started to leeward, bow out by a fraction  and Ineos tacked away.  JS

RR 3 Race  3  Ben got on Jimmy from dive down to stern pressured him to the pin, then started bow out to windward and going faster.  BA  (In this race I thought LR was clearly the faster boat but BA/GS won thru tactics.)

Final race 1 Light air . Boats did not engage. Prada was on foils. Ineos could not get on foils in the pre start. Boat design highlighted JS

Race 2 Ben to leeward bow out. Jimmy forced to tack.  BA

Race 3  Boat handling error by Ineos while chasing LR from astern, Jimmy owns start . JS

Race 4 Jimmy confidently places boat going fast at favored end . Ineos all over the place and have to start on port JS

Race 5 Both boats OCS. Messy call by umpires.  IMO, Jimmy was winning the pre start but blew it by getting OCS. . Like Race 4, Ineos were starting to look muddled and lacking confidence in the prestart. Draw since both were OCS. 

Race 6 More confident positioning by Ben compared to 2 prior races. Hit the line with speed  down the line from Jimmy, marginally bow out and Jimmy eventually tacks away. BA

Race 7 Ben owned start better time and distance. Started 1/2- 1 BL bow out on LR   BA

Race 8 Jimmy looked like he owned it, BA was early and had to tack to cross JS. But BA pulled a start on port out of the hat and JS was ocs and had to take a penalty   BA 

 
dg_sailingfan

dg_sailingfan

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IPLore said:
In 11 races in the Prada Cup , Ineos vs LR : 

BA won 6 starts.  Of those 6, they "owned" two.  

JS won 4 starts (of these owned 2) one of those was a light air start where Ineos simply could not get on foils and LR was foiling. 

1 start was a draw because both boats were OCS. Jimmy was in a dominant position but made an error by being ocs. 

 The evidence does not support Ben being inferior in the starts. 

RR1 Race 2 Ben owned the start , Took LR low in the box, tacked to port and led by over a boat length at start  BA

RR 2 Race 2 Jimmy started to leeward, bow out by a fraction  and Ineos tacked away.  JS

RR 3 Race  3  Ben got on Jimmy from dive down to stern pressured him to the pin, then started bow out to windward and going faster.  BA  (In this race I thought LR was clearly the faster boat but BA/GS won thru tactics.)

Final race 1 Light air . Boats did not engage. Prada was on foils. Ineos could not get on foils in the pre start. Boat design highlighted JS

Race 2 Ben to leeward bow out. Jimmy forced to tack.  BA

Race 3  Boat handling error by Ineos while chasing LR from astern, Jimmy owns start . JS

Race 4 Jimmy confidently places boat going fast at favored end . Ineos all over the place and have to start on port JS

Race 5 Both boats OCS. Messy call by umpires.  IMO, Jimmy was winning the pre start but blew it by getting OCS. . Like Race 4, Ineos were starting to look muddled and lacking confidence in the prestart. Draw since both were OCS. 

Race 6 More confident positioning by Ben compared to 2 prior races. Hit the line with speed  down the line from Jimmy, marginally bow out and Jimmy eventually tacks away. BA

Race 7 Ben owned start better time and distance. Started 1/2- 1 BL bow out on LR   BA

Race 8 Jimmy looked like he owned it, BA was early and had to tack to cross JS. But BA pulled a start on port out of the hat and JS was ocs and had to take a penalty   BA 
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Thank You! INEOS would have been passed in the Prada Cup Final Races most of the time anyways even if Ben won all the starts because in sub 12 Knots the British Boat was literally going knots slower than the Italian Boat.

Don't engage into @mako23too much because you're basically talking to a "Wall" with all his ramblings about Ben!

 
J

JALhazmat

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dg_sailingfan said:
Thank You! INEOS would have been passed in the Prada Cup Final Races most of the time anyways even if Ben won all the starts because in sub 12 Knots the British Boat was literally going knots slower than the Italian Boat.

Don't engage into @mako23too much because you're basically talking to a "Wall" with all his ramblings about Ben!
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Talking shite  again and failing to understand speed vs vmg 

INEOS were as fast but had lower VMG that was the difference

 
mako23

mako23

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IPLore said:
In 11 races in the Prada Cup , Ineos vs LR : 

BA won 6 starts.  Of those 6, they "owned" two.  

JS won 4 starts (of these owned 2) one of those was a light air start where Ineos simply could not get on foils and LR was foiling. 

1 start was a draw because both boats were OCS. Jimmy was in a dominant position but made an error by being ocs. 

 The evidence does not support Ben being inferior in the starts. 

RR1 Race 2 Ben owned the start , Took LR low in the box, tacked to port and led by over a boat length at start  BA

RR 2 Race 2 Jimmy started to leeward, bow out by a fraction  and Ineos tacked away.  JS

RR 3 Race  3  Ben got on Jimmy from dive down to stern pressured him to the pin, then started bow out to windward and going faster.  BA  (In this race I thought LR was clearly the faster boat but BA/GS won thru tactics.)

Final race 1 Light air . Boats did not engage. Prada was on foils. Ineos could not get on foils in the pre start. Boat design highlighted JS

Race 2 Ben to leeward bow out. Jimmy forced to tack.  BA

Race 3  Boat handling error by Ineos while chasing LR from astern, Jimmy owns start . JS

Race 4 Jimmy confidently places boat going fast at favored end . Ineos all over the place and have to start on port JS

Race 5 Both boats OCS. Messy call by umpires.  IMO, Jimmy was winning the pre start but blew it by getting OCS. . Like Race 4, Ineos were starting to look muddled and lacking confidence in the prestart. Draw since both were OCS. 

Race 6 More confident positioning by Ben compared to 2 prior races. Hit the line with speed  down the line from Jimmy, marginally bow out and Jimmy eventually tacks away. BA

Race 7 Ben owned start better time and distance. Started 1/2- 1 BL bow out on LR   BA

Race 8 Jimmy looked like he owned it, BA was early and had to tack to cross JS. But BA pulled a start on port out of the hat and JS was ocs and had to take a penalty   BA 
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My comments are mainly related to BA in the final were the real pressure exists.  So my comments below only relate to the Prada Cup. 

 In your summary of the races and who won, I disagree with race 7 which I thought the Italians won. They wanted the right hand side which payed big dividends. Also race 5 was won by Jimmy, he managed to get penalties put on Ineos. You might disagree with the umpires, but Jimmy definitely tried and successfully got penalties against Ben. 
 

I do agree Ben won the start in races 6 and 8 and marginally won the start in race 2 and that Jimmy won the start in the five other races.  Also some of Jimmy wins in the start were decisive such as races 1,3 and 4. 
 

I don’t blame Ben for losing the Prada cup final because LR had a speed edge.  However he did lose the starts 5 to 3 which was not a great performance. 

 
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dg_sailingfan

dg_sailingfan

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mako23 said:
My comments are mainly related to BA in the final were the real pressure exists.  Some my comments below only relate to the Prada Cup. 

 In your summary of the races and who won, I disagree with race 7 which I thought the Italians won. They wanted the right hand side which payed big dividends. Also race 5 was won by Jimmy, he managed to get penalties put on Ineos. You might disagree with the umpires, but Jimmy definitely tried and successfully got penalties against Ben. 
 

I do agree Ben won the start in races 6 and 8 and marginally won the start in race 2 and that Jimmy won the start in the five other races.  Also some of Jimmy wins in the start were decisive such as races 1,3 and 4. 
 

I don’t blame Ben for losing the Prada cup final because LR had a speed edge.  However he did lose the starts 5 to 3 which was not a great performance. 
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So, you are basically claiming that Ben buckles under pressure which is absurd and totally wrong. You do not win 4 Gold Medals in the Olympics in a row if you don't perform under pressure.

May I suggest to you to watch the 2012 Olympic Finn Regatta where he was completely on the back foot and pulled it off.

 
mako23

mako23

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dg_sailingfan said:
So, you are basically claiming that Ben buckles under pressure which is absurd and totally wrong. You do not win 4 Gold Medals in the Olympics in a row if you don't perform under pressure.

May I suggest to you to watch the 2012 Olympic Finn Regatta where he was completely on the back foot and pulled it off.
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The America’s cup and the Olympics is not the same and not comparable. But let me state this clearly Bens performance in the Olympics is outstanding and totally brilliant. In that field he stands head and shoulders above the rest. 
 

Being outstanding brilliant in Olympic sailing doesn’t mean your going to succeed in the America’s cup. There’s a world of difference between racing a dingy versus an AC75 doing 50 knots. So the pressures different, on a AC75 he has a team to manage versus a dingy where he is on his own. I suspect he would be a brilliant single handled racer around the world. 
 

The fact is  that in three races Jimmy gave Ben a complete lesson  in match racing. When Ben did win the start it was still close. In my opinion Jimmy totally outclassed Ben. To be fair he also did a better job than Peter Burling in the AC75 final. 
 

I don’t think that Ben massively chocked against Jimmy but I do thing that he did let Jimmy get the better of him, due to 

(A) Jimmy is a better match racer

or

(B) He let the pressure get to him

Or maybe  it’s a combination of both.
 

Also the 2012 Olympics was 9 years ago when Ben was at his peak. Time has moved on and I suspect Ben is not as good as he use to be. Father Time  affects us all and that includes Ben. 

When Ben does retire from sailing he will still be rightly regarded as one of the greats. No one can take that away from him

 
EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

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mako23 said:
 In your summary of the races and who won, I disagree with race 7 which I thought the Italians won. They wanted the right hand side which payed big dividends.  Maybe they always wanted the right but Ben won the start , significantly bow out and giving LR bad air.  LR had to tack whether they wanted left or right.  We were not analyzing tactics but pre-start and start.

Also race 5 was won by Jimmy, he managed to get penalties put on Ineos. You might disagree with the umpires, but Jimmy definitely tried and successfully got penalties against Ben. 

Race 5 was won by Jimmy .  But you cannot claim that Jimmy won that start. Jimmy should have had that  start...Ben was in a bad pot....but Ben dragged Jimmy OCS as well. Bad mistake by Jimmy .I would argue that if Ben had Jimmy in a similar tough spot, he would have closed the deal, forced Jimmy OCS and started cleanly himself.  Let's give Jimmy credit for getting Ineos into a precarious position but then failing to execute.  But I gave Jimmy credit for the start light air start where LR was foiling in the prestart and Ineos was not foiling.  I really dont think yu can give credit to Jimmy for that one

I do agree Ben won the start in races 6 and 8 and marginally won the start in race 2 and that Jimmy won the start in the five other races.  Also some of Jimmy wins in the start were decisive such as races 1,3 and 4. In summary Ben won 6 starts. Jimmy won 4 starts and one of those he won because Ineos could not get on the fols. Give Jimmy race 5 and take awy the light air start and you reach the same inescapable conclusion.....Ben wins starts.

Any way you cut it, Ben won more starts vs the Spitbull in the Prada Cup Challenger series.

Im taking nothing away from Spitty because even when he loses starts he is rarely a disaster . He has 2 bad ones out of 11 starts and lost 4 by a small margin which is pretty damn good when going up against Ainslie .  All of the AC helms have a lot of technology to help them judge time and distance, but Ainslie has something indefinable extra whch makes him the single most dangerous skipper in the starting box at current time.  

I don’t blame Ben for losing the Prada cup final because LR had a speed edge.  

LR also sailed superbly and made some good critical tactical calls. A deserving victory.
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EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

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dg_sailingfan said:
Why did Draper step off GBR's SailGP F50 Boat after one Season? Because he was too old!

Draper would be as clumsy as hell steering an AC75!
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He stepped off because Ben and co were stepping on and Ben brought his own team with him.  He stayed on as co-CEO.  Age had naught to do with it. (he is a year younger than Ben but I have no idea if he is in as good shape as ben)

 
EYESAILOR

EYESAILOR

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All this back and forth about the sailing team at Ineos.   

Yet we dont talk about the BIG ISSUE at Ineos.  What changes at the design team need to be made o produce a winning boat?

The Ineos sailing team is very respectable. We can split hairs about how many starts they won or lost but put them on a fast boat and they can win the cup. 

What needs to happen at the design team?

 
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