INEOS Team GB

[enigmatically2]

But does it matter? Or at this stage, is it all about the quality of the CFD? I have a sense that AM, for instance, is running a splendidly well-conceived and resourced programme for the later stages of the IACC era.

It will be interesting to ultimately see but I'm afraid, for me, this point of the cycle isn't very interesting at all. Others are clearly enjoying it, which is fine.

I get why it isn't interesting to some. As an engineer and sailor who enjoys the technical aspects of sailing I do enjoy it. However whereas in the last cycle there was an interest in seeing who could foil with stability we know that they can all do that easily (see last cycle). So videos from far off of boats foiling (with or without seagulls) are of no interest.
What is of interest are the new systems for sail control, the new foil shapes, the different priorities on the test boats (e.g. Mozzy's scaling video) the testing they do in the edge conditions etc. We can't work all of those out, but the fun is in trying to.

Its all about gathering data, and anyone thinks its about sailing fast is missing the point.

Sadly in the last week or so I haven't seen much new on the boats, though AM's comment makes me all the more convinced that there is something else in the main lower zone that we haven't seen yet, and Mozzy has made the whole scaling debate more interesting

 

[Sailbydate]

And some people enjoy train spotting. Go figure. ;-)

 

[enigmatically2]

And some people enjoy train spotting. Go figure. ;-)

On a forum for train fans, in a sub-forum that deals only with trains that appear every 3-4 years, I wonder how many members would be bored by glimpses of new tech on trains?

Though I sure there would be familiar arguments that it was all better in the days of steam than these modern electric trains

 

[dogwatch]

And some people enjoy train spotting. Go figure. ;-)

And then there are plane spotters. I was going to recount my plane spotters story but concluded it was almost as dreary as they are. So I won't.

 

[JALhazmat]

This is utterly dull

T6, it’s a test platform, that’s how they referdto it when it was launched that’s how they still refer to it. It was intended to be used with the tow mast and was set up accordingly, it then had to be reconfigured both for sailing and for data gathering the data that they would’ve got during the towing. As well as now what they gather while sailing

It is not a race boat. It will never be raced. There is no point wanging on about numbers when they utterly irrelevant To anyone outside the the team who know what it’s being measured against.

The Prada, kiwi mini me 12, it’s never being raced It will never be on a course with other boats no one gives a shit what it’s doing how it’s doing it because again none of us know the criteria that is being measured against and it’s never going to see a race course in a competitive environment with another boat from another team.

AC 40 that IS a race boat that IS going to be raced and it’s all one design so everyone has a boat that goes the same speed. so comparing the speed that this does in relation to 2 of the other boats that are never going to be raced is again fucking stupid.

Lastly, due to the unique criteria involved in Recon, no one actually knows what speed they are doing because you’re not allowed to record it. So whatever estimates people are saying they think they’ve done or whatever the speedboat has done next to it. It’s all irrelevant.

 

[Dogfish]

People can only speculate from the available information that's just the way it is. I have no idea which boat is the fastest. Just some look set up better than others. There is a great deal of time to sort any issues out and I suspect Barcelona will be a great levelling venue campared to the previous flat water venues. Looking at the boats and rigs at the moment I think foil choice will be critical.

 

[Stingray~]

Given that designs will start getting finalized beginning late April/May and teams are forced to be in Barcelona from (I think) July through October, I wonder how much the Q’s will even be used in Barcelona this year. What will they do, sail around on the 40’s? How useful is that?

 

[enigmatically2]

Whilst the boat design may be finalised, they can still refine the foils and some systems on the LEQs.
I don't think anyone has used more than a pair of foils, and there is plenty of scope for change within an existing foil (though it on the legacy AC75s of course)

 

[enigmatically2]

Good one

Luna Rossa stepping up yet another level

A performance of epic proportions, Luna Rossa Prada Pirelli showed the America’s Cup world once again that they mean business in this tournament

www.pressmare.it

Not sure why this in Ineos thread, but anyone got a decent photo of these holes in the port side that are mentioned?

 

[Stingray~]

Oops, moving it

 

[JALhazmat]

People can only speculate from the available information that's just the way it is. I have no idea which boat is the fastest. Just some look set up better than others. There is a great deal of time to sort any issues out and I suspect Barcelona will be a great levelling venue campared to the previous flat water venues. Looking at the boats and rigs at the moment I think foil choice will be critical.

Sorry i Posted in reference to the my boat is faster than your boat idiot who thinks it’s actually relevant

 

[Dogfish]

Sorry i Posted in reference to the my boat is faster than your boat idiot who thinks it’s actually relevant

No need, it's a valid point.

 

[Forourselves]

This is utterly dull

T6, it’s a test platform, that’s how they referdto it when it was launched that’s how they still refer to it. It was intended to be used with the tow mast and was set up accordingly, it then had to be reconfigured both for sailing and for data gathering the data that they would’ve got during the towing. As well as now what they gather while sailing

It is not a race boat. It will never be raced. There is no point wanging on about numbers when they utterly irrelevant To anyone outside the the team who know what it’s being measured against.

The Prada, kiwi mini me 12, it’s never being raced It will never be on a course with other boats no one gives a shit what it’s doing how it’s doing it because again none of us know the criteria that is being measured against and it’s never going to see a race course in a competitive environment with another boat from another team.

AC 40 that IS a race boat that IS going to be raced and it’s all one design so everyone has a boat that goes the same speed. so comparing the speed that this does in relation to 2 of the other boats that are never going to be raced is again fucking stupid.

Lastly, due to the unique criteria involved in Recon, no one actually knows what speed they are doing because you’re not allowed to record it. So whatever estimates people are saying they think they’ve done or whatever the speedboat has done next to it. It’s all irrelevant.

Exactly. T6 is a test platform, but to say the LEQ12's are not designed for fast sailing is incorrect. Maybe the INEOS LEQ12 isn't designed for fast sailing, but the other LEQ12's clearly are.
They aren't being raced against another competitor, not physically anyway, but you can bet the teams are inputting the data they gather from other LEQ12's and racing each other in the simulators.
The fact of the matter is, at some point, at some stage in the campaign the teams need to gather data across the wind range, including the top of the wind range. They also need to gather data about how the boat behaves at top speeds in the top wind range, after all, they need to find the limit of the boat in order to transfer that data into the AC75, so they need to be designed for fast sailing, unless they only intend to use the boat to gather data at low speeds, which would seem counter intuitive in the world of the AC. You can only know the limit of the boat if you find the limit of the boat.

What would seem more true is that Ben was unsure how capable his F1 design team was in being able to produce a fast boat, so downplayed the uses of the T6 platform so as to not raise anyones expectations. If it ends up being fast, then it ends up being fast, if not, hey, they're a team that designs cars, so we can't expect them to design a fast boat first time.
The LEQ12's certainly are designed for fast sailing, its just T6 that apparently isn't.

 

[JALhazmat]

The boats aren’t being raced virtually either because to do that would require the full source data to input into the AI, which none of the teams actually have so no one is racing them in real life. No one is racing them virtually in the sims

Unless you know, specifically the criteria that are being measured eachand every time a boat goes sailing and what that data is being compared with all you have is an estimate of a crew member saying we did 45 kn it means nothing.

while you think something is “more true” You haven’t actually supplied any evidence to support that position of that, You can’t substantiate it.

INEOS said they had designed a test platform, that’s what they’ve done and because they haven’t offered any other explanation other than that. you’ve drawn the conclusion he doesn’t trust them to build a boat..


weee wooo the nice Japanese man said they did a number.. so what? You said as others did that speed isn’t what wins the cup, tnZ had the Third/ or slowest top speed of all boats but they won due to better vmg, yet you are now jizzing about doing 40-45 kts

 

[Forourselves]

The boats aren’t being raced virtually either because to do that would require the full source data to input into the AI, which none of the teams actually have so no one is racing them in real life. No one is racing them virtually in the sims

Unless you know, specifically the criteria that are being measured eachand every time a boat goes sailing and what that data is being compared with all you have is an estimate of a crew member saying we did 45 kn it means nothing.

while you think something is “more true” You haven’t actually supplied any evidence to support that position of that, You can’t substantiate it.

INEOS said they had designed a test platform, that’s what they’ve done and because they haven’t offered any other explanation other than that. you’ve drawn the conclusion he doesn’t trust them to build a boat..


weee wooo the nice Japanese man said they did a number.. so what? You said as others did that speed isn’t what wins the cup, tnZ had the Third/ or slowest top speed of all boats but they won due to better vmg, yet you are now jizzing about doing 40-45 kts

Teams were racing other AC75's against each other in the simulators last time based on their own intel, so there's no reason they wouldn't be doing it now. Kevin Shoebridge was asked whether they were racing other boats in the simulator, to which he replied "Yes, we can race another boat in the simulator"

Ben himself said “There are three key reasons why we built T6 and they’re probably all equally valid,” explained Ben Ainslie, INEOS Britannia CEO and Skipper. “Firstly, we have this new partnership with Mercedes-AMG-F1 Applied Science. It’s a big deal trying to bring two design groups together and define common working practices and everything else that goes into designing a successful America’s Cup boat.

“We had the opportunity to do a dry run with T6 before we design and build the race boat for the Cup, and it was really important to us to take that opportunity. It’s highlighted a number of areas where we’ve been able to modify our approach and the overall structure of the team for the better.

“Secondly, we came out of AC36 lacking confidence in our design tools. Ultimately, we made key design decisions in the last Cup using our design tools and our simulation, and they weren’t accurate enough. This was borne out in the end result, across our hull, foil designs and performance.

“T6 is a fantastic opportunity for us to be able to validate our design tools and have more confidence in them, as we go into designing the key components for the race boat for Barcelona"

So they've done 2 Cup cycles and are yet to validate their design tools.

So they didn't trust their design tools, and they were unsure whether the Mercedes F1 team and INEOS AC team could come together to produce a fast boat. Thats why they built the T6.

You're an idiot if you think Team NZ had the slower boat last time. Like we've always said to you idiots blowing their loads over peak speeds. Peak speeds are and always will be irrelevant. Getting around a course faster than the opposition is what matters. If you're the fastest boat around the race course, thats what makes you the fastest boat, not meaningless peak speeds.

 

[enigmatically2]

I will try and keep this simple for you 4idiot.
1) they aren't racing these boats in the SIM because unlike the AC75s they are all too different. If you had understood any of the discussions going in you would have realised that the Ac40 and LEq12s are scaled differently. They have different beams (hull and foils) and different rig sizes for example. The only thing in common is the LOA which is much less important, not least because it isn't even in the water.
2) even if they were the same it is utterly impossible to visually see which boat is faster given that they are sailing
a) in different wind speeds
b) in different wave conditions
C) at different points of sail and angles
D) to test different things at any point
E) whether they have AP on or nit
F) they are even in different hemispheres which means wind veer differs up the masts
No amount of seagulls can allow anyone to truly estimate the relative speeds. People misjudge based on a number of factors, but they are kidding themselves (as you are)
We can in theory see something about how well they fly, tack and gybe but even then we are guessing because we don't know they are testing.

Lucky for you really because if we were judging on what we can see, LR would be winning. And NZ would have a high chance of crashing on any race without an AP on.

Cue 4idiot trying to pick on one small part of what I have said and arguing with that, ignoring all the rest of his wrongness

 

[Stingray~]

 

[Forourselves]

I will try and keep this simple for you 4idiot.
1) they aren't racing these boats in the SIM because unlike the AC75s they are all too different. If you had understood any of the discussions going in you would have realised that the Ac40 and LEq12s are scaled differently. They have different beams (hull and foils) and different rig sizes for example. The only thing in common is the LOA which is much less important, not least because it isn't even in the water.
2) even if they were the same it is utterly impossible to visually see which boat is faster given that they are sailing
a) in different wind speeds
b) in different wave conditions
C) at different points of sail and angles
D) to test different things at any point
E) whether they have AP on or nit
F) they are even in different hemispheres which means wind veer differs up the masts
No amount of seagulls can allow anyone to truly estimate the relative speeds. People misjudge based on a number of factors, but they are kidding themselves (as you are)
We can in theory see something about how well they fly, tack and gybe but even then we are guessing because we don't know they are testing.

Lucky for you really because if we were judging on what we can see, LR would be winning. And NZ would have a high chance of crashing on any race without an AP on.

Cue 4idiot trying to pick on one small part of what I have said and arguing with that, ignoring all the rest of his wrongness

Luckily for everyone, you aren't in any of the teams, since you get it wrong... all of the time.
Then you go back to your same old argument... Dalton is an asshole lol

 

[JALhazmat]

Teams were racing other AC75's against each other in the simulators last time based on their own intel, so there's no reason they wouldn't be doing it now. Kevin Shoebridge was asked whether they were racing other boats in the simulator, to which he replied "Yes, we can race another boat in the simulator"

Ben himself said “There are three key reasons why we built T6 and they’re probably all equally valid,” explained Ben Ainslie, INEOS Britannia CEO and Skipper. “Firstly, we have this new partnership with Mercedes-AMG-F1 Applied Science. It’s a big deal trying to bring two design groups together and define common working practices and everything else that goes into designing a successful America’s Cup boat.

“We had the opportunity to do a dry run with T6 before we design and build the race boat for the Cup, and it was really important to us to take that opportunity. It’s highlighted a number of areas where we’ve been able to modify our approach and the overall structure of the team for the better.

“Secondly, we came out of AC36 lacking confidence in our design tools. Ultimately, we made key design decisions in the last Cup using our design tools and our simulation, and they weren’t accurate enough. This was borne out in the end result, across our hull, foil designs and performance.

“T6 is a fantastic opportunity for us to be able to validate our design tools and have more confidence in them, as we go into designing the key components for the race boat for Barcelona"

So they've done 2 Cup cycles and are yet to validate their design tools.

So they didn't trust their design tools, and they were unsure whether the Mercedes F1 team and INEOS AC team could come together to produce a fast boat. Thats why they built the T6.

You're an idiot if you think Team NZ had the slower boat last time. Like we've always said to you idiots blowing their loads over peak speeds. Peak speeds are and always will be irrelevant. Getting around a course faster than the opposition is what matters. If you're the fastest boat around the race course, thats what makes you the fastest boat, not meaningless peak speeds.

You are literally posting vids of an AC40 and Prada blowing your load about peak speeds earlier in this thread

it’s a fact that during racing TNZ recorded the 3rd or 4th slowest peak during any races, they won due to better vmg

what you do outside of actual racing doesnt count for much if you can’t then do it during a counting race

 

[enigmatically2]

Luckily for everyone, you aren't in any of the teams, since you get it wrong... all of the time.
Then you go back to your same old argument... Dalton is an asshole lol

And where did I say Dalton is an asshole?