INEOS Team GB

The_Alchemist

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And bitching about it will achieve exactly what, Stinger? It's not like ETNZ will, "see the error of their questionable ways" and invite a rethink on the AC75 Rule is it?

Just get on with it, for fucks sake. I'm done.
I think one of the points he is making that several kiwi posters refused to acknowledge the fact that NZ/LR had a substantial head start on the design process of their boats.  Several of us stated how obvious it was but many kept refused to understand it.  Now that it is commonly accepted as a fact, many of those same posters (not you) are not acknowledging they even refuted it.  It just adds to the frustration of the discussion.

 

The_Alchemist

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There may be a legitimate argument as Grant Simmer points out, but that argument is with Luna Rossa as as Challenger of Record about consulting with the other challengers, not ETNZ.

The Americas's Cup has almost always been about the challenger or challenger of record choosing the type of boat and the defender choosing the venue, date and time of the match usually well after the type of boat has been decided. Does anyone remember the stunt of Ras-Al-Khaimah that Alinghi tried to pull?

Grant Simmer of all people was up to his neck in the shenanigans of the defender of the previous five America's Cups, so for him to be bitching about this is just rolled gold hypocrisy...
Did you listen to the podcasts?

 

Lickindip

Anarchist
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Auckland
I think one of the points he is making that several kiwi posters refused to acknowledge the fact that NZ/LR had a substantial head start on the design process of their boats.  Several of us stated how obvious it was but many kept refused to understand it.  Now that it is commonly accepted as a fact, many of those same posters (not you) are not acknowledging they even refuted it.  It just adds to the frustration of the discussion.
I'm kiwi and I accept and acknowledge it. I'm not sure how you define substantial but ill agree it was enough time to gain an advantage

This is the AC ... it's not supposed to be fair ... that's what makes winning it so much better

 

Rennmaus

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Are you saying that the concept and design came from the Italians?  I dont think so.
Are you talking to me?
If so, whether the Italians were involved in concept or design work or not is not relevant to my statement, as all things challengers should be handled via the CoR LR, as the CoR is the representative of all other challengers. ETNZ is the wrong addressee for non-CoR challengers' complaints.

 

Lickindip

Anarchist
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Auckland
You are dead wrong on all of that history. 
Alinghi proposed a larger new IACC design with a dodgy challenger before they took to long and ended up in a DOG match

The end of the IACC

Immediately after the conclusion of the 2007 America's Cup, Brad Butterworth officially announced on behalf of Alinghi and America's Cup Management that a new design of boat would be sailed in the next edition of the America's Cup. The feeling was that the existing IACC rule had evolved as far as was practical and that in the spirit of the America's Cup, a new design challenge was needed. Alinghi eventually promulgated a new design, called the AC 90. Plans to introduce this class were superseded by Alinghi's loss to BMW Oracle in the 2010 America's Cup and the subsequent creation of the AC72 class of catamarans

oracle had access to the design criteria for the AC72 before the challengers, LR chose to buy a design of ETNZ, Artemis was so far behind it wasn't funny

BMW ORACLE Racing presented a two page concept paper to US SAILING and Morrelli & Melvin and asked them to turn it into a fully formed multihull design rule.

i.e they knew jist of what was going to be turned out before the rule was even written

oracle again with help from a failed ausy challenge changed the design to an AC62 and THEN mid cycle changed to the AC50 without all challengers accepting leading to LR pulling out

'We finished our job about four weeks ago,' Morrelli told the audience. 'In our last iteration, the boat was 62 feet, but now we’ve handed it over to Oracle and Russell and the boys to fuss it out with the Challenger of Record and Iain Murray. That is, the Aussies from Hamilton Island Yacht Club. Between them, a lot can happen. We’re now out of the loop, but something’s cooking

The exiting challenger of record was replaced by a challenger committee, where decisions are made by popular vote. When an even smaller 50ft wingsail foiling catamaran class rule amendment was voted in April 2015, Luna Rossa Challenge also withdrew, citing significant costs wasted on the development of the larger vessel.[63] Yachts from France, Japan, New Zealand, Sweden, and the UK remained in the competition to challenge for the cup

its common knowledge that all teams except LR and ETNZ were backed by oracle with the shared design tech as well as them all signing the unprecedented contract to continue with the AC50 class if they won so they were effectively group voting LR/ETNZ into a corner in hope of getting rid of them

 

Sailbydate

Super Anarchist
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Kohimarama
And bitching about it will achieve exactly what, Stinger? It's not like ETNZ will, "see the error of their questionable ways" and invite a rethink on the AC75 Rule is it?

Just get on with it, for fucks sake. I'm done.
Okay :)  
Maybe I'm not done, Stinger. Just imagine for a minute, if ETNZ had called a meeting of possible Challengers and interested parties, to discuss design inputs for the AC36 Rule.

Two thirds of that group would've been firmly attached to retaining multi-hulls and the CoR wanted an IMOCA60 on steroids. What a fucking shit show that would have been.

Better to have a Cup winner with a vision and the balls and wherewithal to make it happen. The AC75 would not have been conceived otherwise. Now, some might say that would have been a good thing, but I call bullshit on that too.

 

Stingray~

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Maybe I'm not done, Stinger. Just imagine for a minute, if ETNZ had called a meeting of possible Challengers and interested parties, to discuss design inputs for the AC36 Rule.

Two thirds of that group would've been firmly attached to retaining multi-hulls and the CoR wanted an IMOCA60 on steroids. What a fucking shit show that would have been.

Better to have a Cup winner with a vision and the balls and wherewithal to make it happen. The AC75 would not have been conceived otherwise. Now, some might say that would have been a good thing, but I call bullshit on that too.
I have no issue with D and CoR choosing the new boat. And they chose an extremely cool concept, that part is good too.

But Simmer, like Holroyd and Hutch before him too, have made a big point about the fact that ETNZ and LR took no input from anyone else, and didn’t even keep them updated on the thinking, for 6 whole months! 
 

When Alinghi was contemplating the AC90 after AC32 ‘07 they invited a bunch of designers into their sessions with Schackenberg, Vrojlik and Simmer and others running the discussions. And despite the DoG legal proceedings having already started, Oracle was included too!

Same for the AC72, AC62 and AC50 designs. M&M welcomed the input of all interested parties, even from those not yet officially entered. And yes, including ETNZ too. 
 

It was much the same story for the IACC Rule, lots of parties were included. 

This is not the way it should have been done but hopefully, as Simmer suggests, the taken advantage has diminished over time. 

 

barfy

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'We finished our job about four weeks ago,' Morrelli told the audience. 'In our last iteration, the boat was 62 feet, but now we’ve handed it over to Oracle and Russell and the boys to fuss it out with the Challenger of Record and Iain Murray. That is, the Aussies from Hamilton Island Yacht Club. Between them, a lot can happen. We’re now out of the loop, but something’s cooking


Same for the AC72, AC62 and AC50 designs. M&M welcomed the input of all interested parties, even from those not yet officially entered. And yes, including ETNZ too
Spin spin spin.

This is not the way it should have been done but hopefully, as Simmer suggests, the taken advantage has diminished over time. 
oh, and nice side and lob as always. Simmer just drafting up the " dear husband" letter.

 

Stingray~

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GD liked that it was going to have so much OD (cheap) and said as much later. 
 

He was cow-towing a bit to Patricio’s decision, knowing the potential help coming his way from that direction. 

 

rh3000

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GD liked that it was going to have so much OD (cheap) and said as much later. 
 

He was cow-towing a bit to Patricio’s decision, knowing the potential help coming his way from that direction. 
Wow, so you are also a mind-reader now and can tell us what GD is really thinking even when it diverges from what he says and does.

I'm impressed :)

 

Stingray~

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Spin spin spin
Wtf is wrong with you? Running around arguing against obvious facts, downvoting my posts, posting like a lunatic? Keerist! Dumbass

There are a few lowest-common-denominator Kiwi posters here who make SAAC almost unreadable. 

 

barfy

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Facts, facts, facts. 
Back em up with some facts..like how m&m solicited input from all teams for ac34, and the two classes for ac35. And then a fact that m&m shared their design brief with the cor and this was then shared with all teams, at the time they presented it to OR.

A fact that the aforementioned classes were designed by committee would help your hypotheses, our spin, as well.

 

Stingray~

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Back em up with some facts..like how m&m solicited input from all teams for ac34, and the two classes for ac35. And then a fact that m&m shared their design brief with the cor and this was then shared with all teams, at the time they presented it to OR.

A fact that the aforementioned classes were designed by committee would help your hypotheses, our spin, as well.
Look it up yourself. It is exactly what happened.

Simmer and the others are right, the way this was done was unfair.
 

It (coincidentally?) is also at the heart of the S Fight that GD now has on his hands, with MBIE, him trying to charge ACE for the exclusive design work done. This is in mainstream news, it’s not like I am the messenger! 

 

robberzdog

Member
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USA
GD liked that it was going to have so much OD (cheap) and said as much later. 
 

He was cow-towing a bit to Patricio’s decision, knowing the potential help coming his way from that direction. 
If Dalts thought the AC50 was such a great idea, as you claim, why didn't ETNZ sign the Framework agreement - and adopt the AC50 for Auckland?

 
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Stingray~

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If he thought the AC50 was such a great idea why didn't ETNZ sign the Framework agreement - and adopt the AC50 for Auckland?
Because he didn’t think the AC50 would suit the H Gulf. 
 
A beefier AC50 V2 Rule may have done it (and folks including RG were shocked they didn’t do that) but.. Whatever! 
 

The decision almost certainly cut out several well-financed teams, OTUSA and Artemis included, so perhaps that was a part of the decision too? 

 
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