Installing a composting toilet.

[Kris Cringle]

Jeez we're off topic, and heading in a useless, non-sailing direction. Rants are fun of course, and this is the place for them!

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On another forum (I think) someone floated the idea of using a bidete with a composting toilet.

• No TP, which is helpful.
  
• Somehow get the bidete water into the pee diverter. I'm sure that is solvable. On a custom design, an elongated seat would do it.
  
• They were suggesting that the pee baffle would just drain overboard, without holding. Not sure the cops will agree, but let's skip past that for the moment. Again, I can think of a few work-arounds.
  

Such a system could be very user friendly in some environments. Discuss!

If the preponderance of bidet toilet seats on my feeds is any indication, then you are onto something that is just around the corner in the marine industry. However, I can't see the design light in the tunnel, yet. 

We installed a Toto seat in a property a couple seasons back. Very expensive but people love them. A friend had a dinner party and he couldn't stop talking about their new Toto toilet that his wife spent up towards 4K to install.

He insisted on escorting me to the loo and describing his new prize.

I think he was disappointed when I didn't sit on it. I in fact only wanted to blow my nose.

The cats out of the bag in the US. Generations of laughing at the bidet, we're finally coming around it seems.

 

[kent_island_sailor]

Right now I am looking at rigging a tiny pump, like a windshield washer pump, to pump the pee tank into my holding tank if I swap to a compost head. I figure that would end the annoyance of dumping it. It also would give the Annapolis pumpout boat something to do

back on topic - happy now?

 

[Kris Cringle]

I searched my 10K Compost Toilets for Boats and Off Grid Living group and this is an old subject. 

This is the first thread that came up and you can see 42 responses. I've skimmed these and a few others and outside of actual bidets and composting toilet set ups for off grid, there's few clever solutions for boats or van type dry toilet systems. 

 

[thinwater]

Right now I am looking at rigging a tiny pump, like a windshield washer pump, to pump the pee tank into my holding tank if I swap to a compost head. I figure that would end the annoyance of dumping it. It also would give the Annapolis pumpout boat something to do

back on topic - happy now?

a. I think the smallest sump pump will be more reliable. Pee can generate some flock/solids after it sits for a while and ferments. And no matter what the "sterile" crowd says, pee left for a week or more, and re-inoculated as it will be in any manner of sump that is not cleaned every few days, will decompose and get really, really funky. Worse than blackwater in terms of stink.

b.  The Annapolis angle makes sense. Easier than explaining it.

 

[thinwater]

I searched my 10K Compost Toilets for Boats and Off Grid Living group and this is an old subject. 

This is the first thread that came up and you can see 42 responses. I've skimmed these and a few others and outside of actual bidets and composting toilet set ups for off grid, there's few clever solutions for boats or van type dry toilet systems. 

I searched YBW for "bidet + composting" and came up dry. Many conversations re. bidets. I've followed a lot of threads over the years, and this is unusual. A subset of a subset.

 

[Blue Crab]

I figure that would end the annoyance of dumping it. It also would give the Annapolis pumpout boat something to do

That's a very good point plus dumping the pee overboard isn't OK legal-wise. Still that leaves you sailing around with a load of stinky stuff. 

 

[Max Rockatansky]

"dumping" doesn't necessarily mean 'dumping overboard.' It also means, 'dumping into a shoreside toilet,' or 'dumping into a designated shoreside receptacle.'

I have 3 1-gal jugs that I use as reservoirs. These fit in a tote bag. When they are full, usually takes most of a week for us two, I empty them either in a toilet which I then spray with bleach and clean or (if unlocked) the designated porta-potty receptacle. This isn't onerous nor difficult.

re: bidet. What I see is a quickly filled holding tank of whatever type and a lot of water use. I can't see a bidet being practical aboard.

 

[Rasputin22]

 

[thinwater]

...

re: bidet. What I see is a quickly filled holding tank of whatever type and a lot of water use. I can't see a bidet being practical aboard.

This depends on how you do the math:

• Less flushing water, because there is less to flush.
  
• Like using TP, how much do you use?
  

In many cases the volume is very similar. I measured the flow of both, to see.

 

[Kris Cringle]

The final step in the composting toilet install, is another un-install task. I've never glassed in a thru hull so I'm just following Wests (or somebody), guidelines. I can put to rest the 'old fiberglass hulls are an inch thick!' hyperbole. I didn't measure it but I'd call it a scant 7/16". 

I used a 4 1/2" flap disc in 36 grit. Although I read something like 12/1, I ended up with an 8-9" divot.  It goes fast! You could overdo it. I was finished in 10 minutes of gentle cupping to get a good even-ish scarf.

The old original seacock I removed weeks ago used the 1/4" teak floor over the rounded hull, area as the seacocks backer. I'd previously cut a teak plug to fit the 2" hole, and installed from above so I didn't have to worry about fiberglass blowing in the head. 

61 year old fiberglass is a very solid, hard material with no separations of voids. It grinds off as a single material not really showing much of the cloth layers. Thick gelcoat or something, this hull has never had a barrier coat, nor blister. 



Using the biggest piece first, method, I've put on about 10 (10oz) diminishing sized circles so far, including one of 24 oz. woven roving (I'm not sure if that's the thing to do,..). Not even half full. Will go down and put on another 10 I suspect (might even throw another roving circle in, and the kitchen sink).  

 

[Max Rockatansky]

Using the biggest piece first, method, I've put on about 10 (10oz) diminishing sized circles so far, including one of 24 oz. woven roving (I'm not sure if that's the thing to do,..). Not even half full. Will go down and put on another 10 I suspect (might even throw another roving circle in, and the kitchen sink).  

Do be advised that you don’t want to overbuild, but just to keep to the same as original (or less). If you create a differential in the layup, it will be prone to cracking at the interface between the stiffer and less-stiff areas. Probably not a huge deal in a small spot like a thru-hull but why do more work than you have to?

 

[Kris Cringle]

The notion to simply cut concentric discs of diminishing size works great on paper or in pixels but it's a different reality in a boatyard, on the tailgate of a PU truck, in 10-15kts. 

After the first 10 I sort of lost my order, sort of reversing the rule. It's impossible to cut slightly smaller discs of this number out of fiberglass cloth. 

And then I overdid the first run of 16+ discs, putting them on one after another. The outer layers sagged overnight so I had a bit of a hump at the bottom that had to be ground off in the morning. 

I tapped it with a hammer and it's like steel already. 

So then I had to cut concentric, flattish on one hemisphere, circles, the next day. That was easier actually. At this point I'm over 20 layers of 10oz including now 3 24oz roving discs. 



I'll check later today with a straight edge but I suspect I still have a good hollow to fill.

We're getting close to Filler time. 

 

[accnick]

The notion to simply cut concentric discs of diminishing size works great on paper or in pixels but it's a different reality in a boatyard, on the tailgate of a PU truck, in 10-15kts. 

After the first 10 I sort of lost my order, sort of reversing the rule. It's impossible to cut slightly smaller discs of this number out of fiberglass cloth. 

And then I overdid the first run of 16+ discs, putting them on one after another. The outer layers sagged overnight so I had a bit of a hump at the bottom that had to be ground off in the morning. 

I tapped it with a hammer and it's like steel already. 

So then I had to cut concentric, flattish on one hemisphere, circles, the next day. That was easier actually. At this point I'm over 20 layers of 10oz including now 3 24oz roving discs. 

View attachment 508024

I'll check later today with a straight edge but I suspect I still have a good hollow to fill.

We're getting close to Filler time. 

I'm a bit confused by your process. I was taught to do this much like a scarf in wood. You start out with a small circle of glass, with each successive layer slightly larger in diameter, so that the final one is essentially the full size of your ground-out area.

 

[Kris Cringle]

I'm a bit confused by your process. I was taught to do this much like a scarf in wood. You start out with a small circle of glass, with each successive layer slightly larger in diameter, so that the final one is essentially the full size of your ground-out area.

That's common sense, and I would agree. But West (Epoxyworks, etc). say to do the opposite, starting with the biggest patch filling the whole 8-12/1 recess.

Their reasoning is that this ensures a better bond as the first patch bonds to all the layers you've uncovered. 

But the reality was that unless you compassed your pieces and cut them within an 1/8", it takes too many layers in my hull to do that. So I jumped back out and started again, twice. And then I did that again - biggest piece first - the next day. I think my cloth is 10oz but in fact I may have some 6oz. I'm using scraps. 

So I have it covered, both ways.

 

[accnick]

That's common sense, and I would agree. But West (Epoxyworks, etc). say to do the opposite, starting with the biggest patch filling the whole 8-12/1 recess.

Their reasoning is that this ensures a better bond as the first patch bonds to all the layers you've uncovered. 

But the reality was that unless you compassed your pieces and cut them within an 1/8", it takes too many layers in my hull to do that. So I jumped back out and started again, twice. And then I did that again - biggest piece first - the next day. I think my cloth is 10oz but in fact I may have some 6oz. I'm using scraps. 

So I have it covered, both ways.

It probably doesn't matter which way you do it on a repair this small in any case.

 

[smj]

That's common sense, and I would agree. But West (Epoxyworks, etc). say to do the opposite, starting with the biggest patch filling the whole 8-12/1 recess.

Their reasoning is that this ensures a better bond as the first patch bonds to all the layers you've uncovered. 

But the reality was that unless you compassed your pieces and cut them within an 1/8", it takes too many layers in my hull to do that. So I jumped back out and started again, twice. And then I did that again - biggest piece first - the next day. I think my cloth is 10oz but in fact I may have some 6oz. I'm using scraps. 

So I have it covered, both ways.

I was taught the same way. Another reason is if the largest patch is the last patch and your patching sits a little proud of the hull, then the larger more structural patch may get sanded down during the fairing process.

 

[Kris Cringle]

As the filler dries on my boat, 2 boats down, my son and partners 5k Pearson sits.

The rudder feels sort of like a big al dente' lasagna noodle. The last owner, had continually stuffed the cracks (joints between wood stock) with marine rubbery goop.

He had brilliantly packed each drift access with thickened West epoxy instead of removable wood plugs, thereby guaranteeing his noodle-y rudder.. 

It took longer to remove the West (with resultant damage), than it did to loosen and remove the rudder pieces. 

One of their friends, a 'boat builder' told them it was history and to build a fiberglass rudder, now (2-3 weeks before launch). 

After some probing I could see one upper bronze machine bolt was snapped, the others mostly loose from years of shrinking the wood by stuffing the 'cracks' after the mahogany dried. The bronze rudder stocks are both sound, the lower threaded drifts are in perfect condition. The snapped middle bolt (magic marker line) has to be driven out to release the upper rudder piece. 

All the wood should be replaced but I don't think we (I don't), have time now. The vood is good enough.

FREYA is not gong transatlantic any time soon, we may just clean it up and snug it up with a few new bronze bolts unless they want to delay launch. 

They can take the pieces off next winter and cut/shape new ones (8/4 Sipo stock available down the road) and that will likely last another 50-60 years: Or tear the whole thing out and build a composite glass rudder that will likely last,....almost as long.

I'm not going to influence them,.... 

 

[accnick]

As the filler dries on my boat, 2 boats down, my son and partners 5k Pearson sits.

The rudder feels sort of like a big al dente' lasagna noodle. The last owner, had continually stuffed the cracks (joints between wood stock) with marine rubbery goop.

He had brilliantly packed each drift access with thickened West epoxy instead of removable wood plugs, thereby guaranteeing his noodle-y rudder.. 

It took longer to remove the West (with resultant damage), than it did to loosen and remove the rudder pieces. 

One of their friends, a 'boat builder' told them it was history and to build a fiberglass rudder, now (2-3 weeks before launch). 

After some probing I could see one upper bronze machine bolt was snapped, the others mostly loose from years of shrinking the wood by stuffing the 'cracks' after the mahogany dried. The bronze rudder stocks are both sound, the lower threaded drifts are in perfect condition. The snapped middle bolt (magic marker line) has to be driven out to release the upper rudder piece. 

All the wood should be replaced but I don't think we (I don't), have time now. The vood is good enough.

FREYA is not gong transatlantic any time soon, we may just clean it up and snug it up with a few new bronze bolts unless they want to delay launch. 

They can take the pieces off next winter and cut/shape new ones (8/4 Sipo stock available down the road) and that will likely last another 50-60 years: Or tear the whole thing out and build a composite glass rudder that will likely last,....almost as long.

I'm not going to influence them,.... 

View attachment 508888

It might be worth taking a profile template off now, so a new blade could be built at your leisure. Of course, I might take the opportunity to change that traditional profile to a slightly more modern Constellation-type rudder profile, with more area at the bottom.

What is the boat? An old Pearson?

 

[Kris Cringle]

It might be worth taking a profile template off now, so a new blade could be built at your leisure. Of course, I might take the opportunity to change that traditional profile to a slightly more modern Constellation-type rudder profile, with more area at the bottom.

What is the boat? An old Pearson?

We've changed plans: I checked it thoroughly this am and the wood is not so good. We'll have to make the time, now. I asked a friend that is a wooden boat builder about material choices and waiting for a reply. 

It's a 60's Pearson Vanguard. Rudder builders they ain't, but they can sail.

We might wank that trailing plank out a bit at the bottom,... but this rudder is already well advanced beyond their previous boats.  

 

[accnick]

We've changed plans: I checked it thoroughly this am and the wood is not so good. We'll have to make the time, now. I asked a friend that is a wooden boat builder about material choices and waiting for a reply. 

It's a 60's Pearson Vanguard. Rudder builders they ain't, but they can sail.

We might wank that trailing plank out a bit at the bottom,... but this rudder is already well advanced beyond their previous boats.  

If the blade is attached using threaded drifts, you may need to use similar construction to the original. That was the way many yacht rudders were built until all-glass rudder become common. The annual shrinking and swelling of a rudder built that way takes its toll, however.

The rudder built for my last boat was an outboard rudder, so it did not have a traditional stock. I built that out of two layers of marine ply, tapered and shaped, then glassed over, with carbon reinforcement around the cutout for the prop, since I changed the profile from pretty much exactly what you have there to a Constellation profile. This meant there was less "meat" in the area of the prop aperture, so additional reinforcement was required.

The total wetted area was about the same between the original traditional rudder and the Constellation rudder, but the distribution of area was different.

I kicked up the bottom of the rudder at a slight angle as protection in a grounding, since the keel had a fair amount of drag, and I didn't want the rudder to be the low point.

This was the outboard profile with the modified rudder.