IOR landfills?

12 metre

Super Anarchist
3,933
732
English Bay
Only Magic Bus and Seaply (Seaflyer) pleased my eye of the designs by Paul Whiting. Then he got into extreme IOR distortions. However, if this is a remain stuff of any of his yachts it is really a waste.
I don't think they became any more distorted over time.  I do find it kind of funny that people think Whitings designs were distorted while LDs were smooth.  IMO their designs share similar bones.  Below are Whiting's Newspaper Taxi and LD's Pendragon (athough I think perhaps the French guy recreated Pendragons lines from her sectional drawings which I have seen on the internet but never her waterlines and buttock lines so I can't vouch for their accuracy).  They even have the same deck line pull in forward of the Aft Girth Station

In any event, NT actually has a smoother run aft to her stern than Pendragon which has a bit of the Davidson crease.  Overall, NT has more topside flare and the beam on NT is carried further aft while max depth is further forward relative to Pendragon.

Those differences aside, the main visual differences are that if Whiting and Davidson were both given a wooden half model of another NZ IOR design (say Farr or Young) I think Whiting would pull out a block plane to flatten any curves on the fore/aft topsides and forward bottom.   On the other hand I think Davidson would pull out a ROS to round off any hint of an edge or corner.  And yes, that is a simplistic view but that is how I've always viewed it. 

Newspaper Taxi.jpg

Pendragon lines.jpg

 

johnsonjay17

Member
111
32
"Lung busters" and "Light air telltale"=Luxury!

Need I say it again. And hopefully for the last time. You should know better. All these Viking series shown on TV:

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A6rne_Kloster

Google translate of the Ynglinga saga:

“King Skjold came down to the beach with his army, then King Øystein was gone and had come all the way across the fjord, and Skjold saw their sails; then he took his cloak and cranked and blew with it. When they sailed in past Jersøy, King Øystein sat at the helm, another ship sailed right up to them, there was a little seagoing, and then the boom of the ship struck the king overboard; it became his death.”
A good cigar in light air is still the best "telltale"

 

LordBooster

Super Anarchist
1,783
357
I don't think they became any more distorted over time.  I do find it kind of funny that people think Whitings designs were distorted while LDs were smooth.  IMO their designs share similar bones.  Below are Whiting's Newspaper Taxi and LD's Pendragon (athough I think perhaps the French guy recreated Pendragons lines from her sectional drawings which I have seen on the internet but never her waterlines and buttock lines so I can't vouch for their accuracy).  They even have the same deck line pull in forward of the Aft Girth Station

In any event, NT actually has a smoother run aft to her stern than Pendragon which has a bit of the Davidson crease.  Overall, NT has more topside flare and the beam on NT is carried further aft while max depth is further forward relative to Pendragon.

Those differences aside, the main visual differences are that if Whiting and Davidson were both given a wooden half model of another NZ IOR design (say Farr or Young) I think Whiting would pull out a block plane to flatten any curves on the fore/aft topsides and forward bottom.   On the other hand I think Davidson would pull out a ROS to round off any hint of an edge or corner.  And yes, that is a simplistic view but that is how I've always viewed it. 

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Thanks for the drawings! Well, I think Laurie Davidson got inspiration in only one single aspect from Paul Whiting, depth volume (from Light Brigade by Gary Baigent):

https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ALeKk037QaHk88_yyMhDiORRM33IErKXkQ%3A1608585458051&source=hp&ei=8RDhX7nzPOPrrgSroLhY&q=%22laurie+davidson%22+%22light+brigade%22+depth-volume&oq=%22laurie+davidson%22+%22light+brigade%22&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQARgAMgcIIxCuAhAnMgcIIxCuAhAnOgcIIxDqAhAnOgcILhDqAhAnOgQIIxAnOgQILhAnOgcILhAnEJMCOgQILhBDOgUIABCxAzoLCAAQsQMQxwEQowI6DggAELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCxAxCDAToECAAQQzoICC4QsQMQgwE6CAgAEMcBEKMCOgIIADoFCC4QywE6AgguOgUIABDLAToLCAAQxwEQrwEQywE6BggAEBYQHlDwHVjR2gFggfgBaAFwAHgAgAF8iAHzFpIBBDI4LjWYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6sAEK&sclient=psy-ab

[SIZE=11.5pt]“But Davidson was critical, “Paul Whiting’s designs are join up the dots boats and they aren’t pretty. But it took courage to do what he did in the forward sections because, with the extreme hollow on the waterline, he had to get deep volume in that area, and that was very cleverly done. But I think the overall effect was horrific and his boats were no good unless Murray Ross was sailing them.””[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]And that is what you see in Newspaper Taxi vs Pendragon. The original design of Waverider was roughly a scaled up version of Fun. Now compare the original design of Waverider and the modified Waverider. Davidson had to increase its displacement. Here, among other things, went for depth volume. This does not answer the question if Whiting's designs got more distorted with time, but maybe this does (Pendragon is the main subject but Riotous Assembly designed -78 is dealt with as well) and compare with Magic Bus from -76:[/SIZE]






 

LordBooster

Super Anarchist
1,783
357
A good cigar in light air is still the best "telltale"
Well, you are probably correct. I have no tested that trick, only snus. Snus (roughly chewing tobacco) works good in a breeze, cigar probably not. Probably the reason my light air speed...

 

Cal20sailor

Super Anarchist
12,823
3,331
Detroit
Well, you are probably correct. I have no tested that trick, only snus. Snus (roughly chewing tobacco) works good in a breeze, cigar probably not. Probably the reason my light air speed...
If it's that light, watch how the smoke flows when I shoot myself with the flare gun.

 

johnsonjay17

Member
111
32
If it's that light, watch how the smoke flows when I shoot myself with the flare gun.
Back in college (a long time ago) we won several races because everybody else quit and we made the cut-off time. Boats even in front of us threw in the towel. At the party they all just said it wasn't worth it.

JJ

 

Cal20sailor

Super Anarchist
12,823
3,331
Detroit
Back in college (a long time ago) we won several races because everybody else quit and we made the cut-off time. Boats even in front of us threw in the towel. At the party they all just said it wasn't worth it.

JJ
Despite my misery, I never quit.  Thanks for the wake-up call!  '89 Chi-Mac as proof.

43' finishing Tuesday afternoon...sucks on all levels...we won.

  My dad (RIP '02) taught me that if you start a race, you finish the race.  I did a few solo Mackinacs including a Supermac (Chicago- Port Huron), the year beforer, I'm just aiming for Mackinac, my autopilot went TU as I'm a long tack staring at Muskegon...my trailer was in Muskegon (F27).  I ended up beating one of the best sailors I have been privileged to sail with.

 
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fastyacht

Super Anarchist
12,928
2,596
I don't think they became any more distorted over time.  I do find it kind of funny that people think Whitings designs were distorted while LDs were smooth.  IMO their designs share similar bones.  Below are Whiting's Newspaper Taxi and LD's Pendragon (athough I think perhaps the French guy recreated Pendragons lines from her sectional drawings which I have seen on the internet but never her waterlines and buttock lines so I can't vouch for their accuracy).  They even have the same deck line pull in forward of the Aft Girth Station

In any event, NT actually has a smoother run aft to her stern than Pendragon which has a bit of the Davidson crease.  Overall, NT has more topside flare and the beam on NT is carried further aft while max depth is further forward relative to Pendragon.

Those differences aside, the main visual differences are that if Whiting and Davidson were both given a wooden half model of another NZ IOR design (say Farr or Young) I think Whiting would pull out a block plane to flatten any curves on the fore/aft topsides and forward bottom.   On the other hand I think Davidson would pull out a ROS to round off any hint of an edge or corner.  And yes, that is a simplistic view but that is how I've always viewed it. 

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View attachment 416226
That Whiting drawing the waterlines are not parallel to the design waterline, are they?

Davidson's description is apt.

Yes they both share general features but the Davison hullform is more balanced.

I wonder what the Curve of Areas looks like on the Whiting.

The Diagonals on the Whiting (only 3) aren't enough to see the real waterflow -- would be interesting to take others or same as LD hull for comparison.

Remember that with exception of running, that crease isn't in the water and the diagonals are what matters. Davidson's buttock angle is still nowhere near steep enough to create separation.

It is fun to post these together.

 

Maxx Baqustae

Super Anarchist
5,154
276
Canadian Southwest
Only Magic Bus and Seaply (Seaflyer) please my eye of the Whiting designs. He got to much into IOR distortions. Still none of his yachts should end up like this. But I like the German shepherd at the wheel. The Whiting design Riotous Assembly had IOR distortions...

View attachment 416120
That is my shot as I was at the regatta for the 1978 3/4 ton worlds in Victoria. That shot was for final IOR measuring. Crap build and didn't get for as it was set up for Swiftsure but it was blowing 35 knots or more on that day so the boat crushed the mast step if remembering correctly. So it never made it to the regatta.When we arrived after delivery to RVicYC it was dark and looked at that and went: WTF??? 

 

12 metre

Super Anarchist
3,933
732
English Bay
That Whiting drawing the waterlines are not parallel to the design waterline, are they?

Davidson's description is apt.

Yes they both share general features but the Davison hullform is more balanced.

I wonder what the Curve of Areas looks like on the Whiting.

The Diagonals on the Whiting (only 3) aren't enough to see the real waterflow -- would be interesting to take others or same as LD hull for comparison.

Remember that with exception of running, that crease isn't in the water and the diagonals are what matters. Davidson's buttock angle is still nowhere near steep enough to create separation.

It is fun to post these together.
I believe they are. The stern freeboard is greater than the bow freeboard.

Diagonals can be used to maybe get an idea of the flow - but some designers used them mainly to fair the lines.  Diagonals usually aren't parallel to each other but tend to fan out.  From the looks of how the lower diagonal intersects the corners of the quasi chine, my guess is he was using it to locate the lateral position of the chine at each station. 

An interesting thing is that Davidson references the hollow bow sections in the Whiting designs, and indeed in photos it sure looks like it.  but if you put a straight edge up against the forward waterlines of NT, you will find no discernable hollow.

I agree that compared to Pendragon, NT has an unbalanced look - mainly due to the far aft location of BMAX (roughly between Stations 7&8) while Pendragon is roughly between Stations 6&7.  But Farr usually had a similarly far aft BMAX, but it didn't look as unbalanced because AGS wasn't as far forward (i.e. similar era Farrs such as Red Lion et al had less steeply sloping transoms and longer decks.  Just a visual thing.

 

12 metre

Super Anarchist
3,933
732
English Bay
Sorry - that picture is of one of the Locura's. A Soveral design. 
Yes, but there was a link in my post to an old ad for Cadenza, which had  some nice photos of Cadenza in her glory days in Cali - which I believe is what he was referring to. 

I think the people who posted that old ad may have lifted them from DA-Woodys website.

 

12 metre

Super Anarchist
3,933
732
English Bay
That Whiting drawing the waterlines are not parallel to the design waterline, are they?

Davidson's description is apt.

Yes they both share general features but the Davison hullform is more balanced.

I wonder what the Curve of Areas looks like on the Whiting.

The Diagonals on the Whiting (only 3) aren't enough to see the real waterflow -- would be interesting to take others or same as LD hull for comparison.

Remember that with exception of running, that crease isn't in the water and the diagonals are what matters. Davidson's buttock angle is still nowhere near steep enough to create separation.

It is fun to post these together.
If you liked that - you will love this.  Photos of Pendragon and Riotous Assembly at RVic from the '78 3/4 Ton Worlds.  The photos are thanks to Maxx Baquestae from a thread last year about Pendragon being on the market.  In the stern shot of Pendragon in the slings, that is Laurie in the blue shirt on the right and I think that may be Paul Whiting on the left in the white shirt and sunglasses.  IDK, never actually met the guy but looks like what I have seen of him in a few photos.

Edit: just noticed in the third Pendragon photo you can see Riotous Assembly's stern in the near background.

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003.thumb.jpg.754edf514c422db385ae7fbcfd7174a6.jpg

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005.thumb.jpg.b33653db3ec62685feb44a3c8e21e4cc.jpg

 
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LordBooster

Super Anarchist
1,783
357
If you liked that - you will love this.  Photos of Pendragon and Riotous Assembly at RVic from the '78 3/4 Ton Worlds.  The photos are thanks to Maxx Baquestae from a thread last year about Pendragon being on the market.  In the stern shot of Pendragon in the slings, that is Laurie in the blue shirt on the right and I think that may be Paul Whiting on the left in the white shirt and sunglasses.  IDK, never actually met the guy but looks like what I have seen of him in a few photos.

Edit: just noticed in the third Pendragon photo you can see Riotous Assembly's stern in the near background.

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Nice pictures. Must have been fun to be there. Listening to Laurie Davidson commenting on Paul Whiting's creations: [SIZE=11.5pt]“Paul Whiting’s designs are join up the dots boats and they aren’t pretty." One can just figure about Whiting's hypothetical comment about Davidson's: Laurie Davidson's has adopted my deep volume in the forward sections, but he has missed joining the dots correctly.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]   [/SIZE]

 

LordBooster

Super Anarchist
1,783
357

Maxx Baqustae

Super Anarchist
5,154
276
Canadian Southwest
Nice pictures. Must have been fun to be there. Listening to Laurie Davidson commenting on Paul Whiting's creations: [SIZE=11.5pt]“Paul Whiting’s designs are join up the dots boats and they aren’t pretty." One can just figure about Whiting's hypothetical comment about Davidson's: Laurie Davidson's has adopted my deep volume in the forward sections, but he has missed joining the dots correctly.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11.5pt]   [/SIZE]
I was there for a month or more. Between Swiftsure before that and we were still bolting shit on the boat. Like I say - Ritous never got to the regatta because of damage at Swifsure. It was a very odd design anyway. In that picture of Pendragon shows Laurie just below that A-G dock sign at the club being measured. I have a picture of Laurie and Lowell North in the back of a pick up after sucking up a lot of the government hooch at a reception at Government House in Victoria in no pain. Poncho was there and we wandered around the place until we found the formal dining room that was velvet roped out. We just grabbed our "tumblers" of single malt and feet up on the table and drank until the Sgt. of Arms caught us! Too funny.

John Buchan won the regatta by half a point on his Brit Chance design against Pendragon. His son Carl was there and his teenage buddies - the McKees. I didn't know them at the time but I ended up racing with them for 10 years in Seattle and we have this great relationship to this day. I raced on Jonathan's Riptide 44 Dark Star twice on Straits race. It was Jonathan's Bday on the weekend and I was the first to give him my congrats via Wastebook.

I don't know if this will stick but we had a Mull 3/4 tonner built for the worlds in aluminum in North Vancouver. We didn't do well as the owner was in the process of moving his engineering firm to Portland and I didn't know much about full-on race boats; particularly one that was built out of aluminum!         

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