Is the SMS Rule Broken, I Think NOT

[t-8]

yes there we're quite a few tweaks done to better reflect what a sports boat is. Light displacement where the crew weight can be 100 percent of displacement so overhangs were irrelevant, even on a T boat which as soon as you put 5-6 on all but disappeared. Believe it or not there was a lot of work done by the original guys to even up the fleet and try and stop the blokes from exploiting the loopholes. Like when we introduced mast bands to stop the nuftties that were cutting foots up on mains to get an advantage of a shorter P measurement. But any formula based system is open to optimisation. IRC anyone??
Anyway, my comments here are only to add to commentary to the backstory of how and why ASBA was formed. I'm not looking to pass judgment on what is currently happing just offering a little bit of history for some that may not be aware.

 

[PUNISHER]

 

[(p)Irate]

Now, ever since I put a boat of my concept on the water, the REO 7.2, the vendetta against the boat and me started.

They cannot bring themselves to race against the REO boats from my stable on SMS as they know the writing is on the wall and the REO boats will win if there is any reasonable breeze.

This is very flattering, that my designs have scared them off but I love the sport of sailing and I am not happy that without any communication to the ASBA Committee, now headed by Michael Brierley in Brisbane this group have decided not to support the ASBA Fleet.


I have been on this planet for over 60 years and I don’t really give a shit about what other people, who I do not respect have to say, so I will not bother answering negative comments.

Most of the people in sports boats in Australia do not know my background and it seems do not take kindly to someone they don’t know that well beating them. Apart from placing in the top 5 in the world in 5 classes, which none of them have done, I have sailed in two America’s Cups, been an Olympic class coach and skippered a yacht to win the Blue Ocean Point Score, the premier ocean racing series at the CYCA in Sydney.

To summarise the problems:

1. There is no problem with SMS, but there is a problem that only one boat has been designed to the rule, such that the majority of other boats are now obsolete. Sportsboat owners are not millionaires - we don't (can't) change boats at the drop of a hat. That doesn't mean that we can no longer sail well, just that we cannot be competitive.

2. There is clear arrogance on the part of the REO designer demonstrated by his pride that only the REO boats will win. This doesn't exactly foster a spirit of sports boat cameraderie which was one of the original attractions of ASBA. As this attitude cannot bring people together it can only drive people away, even back to the CBH system, and it has done so.

3. He doesn't give a shit about what other people say. See point 2 above.

4. Oh dear, people don't respect his sailing pedigree. Has he bothered to find out that of anyone else? There have been former AC sailors in the ASBA fleet before. They didn't make a big deal of it, not did they expect others to.

OK, confession time. I own a T7. I was once the VP of ASBA. I haven't sailed outside TAS since 2012 when I took on a job that essentially kept me no further than one day away from work, so I was spared the decision as to whether I would still race ASBA under SMS. My heart said yes but the realities of 1-4 above said no. The issue, however, is not whether T7's decide to sail elsewhere but when the Shaw 650's do. If, as @tedrules claims, only the REO boats can win under SMS, then SMS is not broken, but ASBA fundamentally is.

 

[Turkey Slapper]

3. Perfect, nailed it pirate, as mentioned before, self interest over the fleets! And now there is no fleet!

 

[PUNISHER]

 

[(p)Irate]

Interim results fro ABRW Race 1 had the REO 7.2 finishing more than 20 minutes in front of the Bethwaite 8. Fuck, those REO's are unbeatable, I initially thought. Now the results show AVG average points while a protest says to be scored RET. Anyone know what happened?

SailSys - Portal

app.sailsys.com.au

https://sailsysprod.blob.core.windows.net/attachments/2022ABRWDecisions12.08.2022_073127.pdf

 

[Tokyo Trash Baby]

Interim results fro ABRW Race 1 had the REO 7.2 finishing more than 20 minutes in front of the Bethwaite 8. Fuck, those REO's are unbeatable, I initially thought. Now the results show AVG average points while a protest says to be scored RET. Anyone know what happened?

SailSys - Portal

app.sailsys.com.au

https://sailsysprod.blob.core.windows.net/attachments/2022ABRWDecisions12.08.2022_073127.pdf

Missed an island they had to sail around….. how they get avg points has me stumped.

 

[Tokyo Trash Baby]

To summarise the problems:

1. There is no problem with SMS, but there is a problem that only one boat has been designed to the rule, such that the majority of other boats are now obsolete. Sportsboat owners are not millionaires - we don't (can't) change boats at the drop of a hat. That doesn't mean that we can no longer sail well, just that we cannot be competitive.

2. There is clear arrogance on the part of the REO designer demonstrated by his pride that only the REO boats will win. This doesn't exactly foster a spirit of sports boat cameraderie which was one of the original attractions of ASBA. As this attitude cannot bring people together it can only drive people away, even back to the CBH system, and it has done so.

3. He doesn't give a shit about what other people say. See point 2 above.

4. Oh dear, people don't respect his sailing pedigree. Has he bothered to find out that of anyone else? There have been former AC sailors in the ASBA fleet before. They didn't make a big deal of it, not did they expect others to.

OK, confession time. I own a T7. I was once the VP of ASBA. I haven't sailed outside TAS since 2012 when I took on a job that essentially kept me no further than one day away from work, so I was spared the decision as to whether I would still race ASBA under SMS. My heart said yes but the realities of 1-4 above said no. The issue, however, is not whether T7's decide to sail elsewhere but when the Shaw 650's do. If, as @tedrules claims, only the REO boats can win under SMS, then SMS is not broken, but ASBA fundamentally is.

The sad part is…. This guy is the current Vice President of the ASBA… I would have thought you’d be encouraging as many boats-being entry level or top level to be joining the association and make great fleet numbers. Basically saying no other boat is competitive seems counter productive. Self interest should take no place while in a position on an association’s committee. It makes me sad to see how little promotion is being done to keep people interested, build numbers and show what activity is happening around the place. Day one of ABRW is done and there hasn’t been any social media lead up to the regatta or coverage from day one racing…. It all matters in keeping people engaged.

 

[Turkey Slapper]

People speak up, what a disgrace! Sportboats bought to a new level of farce today! The shame!

 

[Turkey Slapper]

But, the fleet comends the ex national champ who did the same wrong island rounding but addressed the comity hounorabley and not tried a farcical action to defend their mistake! Well done GT and crew! Good to see there are sailors doing the right thing still in our self policing sport! Bravo!

 

[JulianB]

I'm back in Sydney, had a great time in Airlie. We ended up 4th on PHRS, we don't have a CBH so no idea. Winning the first 2 races (on corrected) is pretty dumb, but from our POV, winning anything in a 1300kgs boat was "un-expected". Congrats to Vivace and Skeeter who shared 1st and 2nd place in both CBH and PHRS, plus just about all the 1st and 2nd places across the line bar one 2nd place I think.
Got to admit, pretty chuffed that Bethwaite boats did that, even if they are greatly modified.

Yes I have sailed SprotsBoats before but the camaraderie was great and the welcoming was really appreciated, the sailors, may not be all skiffies (there where a lot of us) but were all great sailors, no majors and lost of chat re were to go from here as it would be great to pull this together and have even more great events. Need to stay away from Cubby and the Rum & Coke, only that aint going to happen!

A few of you have asked me to have a play. The general consensus is we need to evolve some sort of system that it self evolves so we don't end up in this bind again. Luke asked me to have a play and to that extent I have bounced an idea off a mate who is a) is sort of retired, he is younger than me, but been in banking, b) has done pure-math all his life and c) is presently sailing on a slow boat in Hammo, so he gets the concept. But he is also a ex NS14, Tasar, 18teen, Sportsboat and windsurfers sailor so knows HP and what I think it is we are looking for.

If you give me a week or so, see what we can pull together, but I think that a model based on the LongPHRS system that the QLD's use has the most merit, and the reason for that is that it actually uses performance of the boat so it's a empirical/actual measure rather than a theoretical system which tries to determine performance based on a series of hardware measurements. By long, you would have 10 or 20 lead up races to determine your rating, and once a event started it would not alter, or alter a very limited amount.

Yes you can fox the system, but that is all about setting parameters and with the ability to track a boat and wind-speed, the system could pick up anomalies and apply a correction if it detected foxing.

Given apps and the alike, lots of options, lots of possibilities, but key for me is that it be transparent, we decide the parameters maybe yearly but most importantly it would mean that boats would be designed for performance or longevity or usability rather than rating which normally results in a pig.

Give me a week or 2 and I will see where we end up with a 2 head brain storming session! Then open it up. jB

 

[Turkey Slapper]

We use phs up here in Qld! Ok!

Picked the wrong thread, but to be honest I didn't read all the cockwhaffel from the original poster, but I did catch the bit where he worked out what rates best, he is such a superior sailor to anyone that was on the course the past week, and his rating machine with his prowess, is un beatable! Whoops! The one trick pony went well, well went well once! The Anarchy's second IPS (search it, the has been others with the same design/self importance breif) was hosed in a couple of the races up there by 19th century cabin sporting fucking trailer sailers, not only on rating, but accross the line! Watching some of the antics over the week, of the one you mentioned, and the OP, if you want to support the organisation they have trashed, and want help repairing, mabe change your name! Finecotton was a nice horse im told as well!

 

[JulianB]

Hi Guys, this conversation re LongPHS is progressing, so what forum do people want to do this on.
Presently we are spreader over fB and WhatsApp, be better to do this all in one place?

Going fwd, WhatsApp is probably the best option.

jB

 

[Berndty]

Hi Guys, this conversation re LongPHS is progressing, so what forum do people want to do this on.
Presently we are spreader over fB and WhatsApp, be better to do this all in one place?

Going fwd, WhatsApp is probably the best option.

jB

Not all people have what's app and they were not invited. Also I have heard the inconvenience of your phone getting notifications all day from people talking about irrelevant topics can also be distracting.
Just out of interest. What's the change and chat? Years ago top yacht was approached and the started developing the ASBA LTP Handicap as described on the ASBA Website. It was voted in to the constitution as a secondary system to be use along side of SMS. It worked really well and most seemed really happy with it. Since the committee took over in August 2021 it was all forgotten about and the time it was used at NSW State Titles it was run not to what was agreed and voted by the members.
I can't understand why there is another system being investigated when the old LTP was doing great and creating interest.

 

[JulianB]

I did not know that, maybe what we need to do is resurrect it.
More than happy to do nothing.

I don't need the gig!

So who's got access and who's going to do this?

jB

 

[Berndty]

I did not know that, maybe what we need to do is resurrect it.
More than happy to do nothing.

I don't need the gig!

So who's got access and who's going to do this?

jB

Hey Jb
It was really easy to maintain and run. After each regatta I advised top yacht that the system was ready to be updated. They used thier results system to complete this. Any boat with any more "known result data" got updated.
Ie after the nationals regatta in Brisbane the new committee should of got it updated as there were a wide range of wind condition results across a 22 or so boat fleet. That data would of been fantastic to handicap the fleet. But it was never done. Even after I advised the president and the [email protected] email. After the system was discussed, voted on and the constitution change to accommodate the ASBA LTP I updated the constitution and website to include it. See screen shots below and link to LTP Handicap list.

LTP Summary

As you can see the last time it was updated was when I asked Top Yacht to do it in preparation for DPSS 2021 Nats.
Even after numerous emails and posts to FB page it did not happen and I was ban/advised from interacting with anyone other than the [email protected] email. Which I still believe that I was blocked from also.

 

[Berndty]

I admit some tfc numbers are still out there.... but the boats that were starting to race consistently were getting some really good racing in using the system. Most of the boats on that list other than maybe 10 had good enough data to make it work and fair.
We even had the system change the handicaps after each race to stop/control a boat with "no known data" or a new design from coming in and blowing out a regatta.

 

[JulianB]

Hi Jamie, I'm being urged to push on, both by SB sailors and the guys on this boat in Hammo.
You have Peter who is the pure-math guy, you have Tony who is a medical scientist, plus another 3 who are equally "left field thinkers", I asked them to think outside the box, which is what they are doing and I think we may end up with some extraordinary clarity.

Some of the feed back I have had already is very KISS and very enlightening.

Got to admit that super happy that a Long Term PHS has been considered and has gotten so far thought the process but the fact that apathy has struck once again as it always dose, it needs human intervention, is always a issue, and always will be a issue.

Why don't you pursue LTP and I will pursue a app base LPHS, then we have a choice which is sensational!

jB

 

[Berndty]

Hi Jamie, I'm being urged to push on, both by SB sailors and the guys on this boat in Hammo.
You have Peter who is the pure-math guy, you have Tony who is a medical scientist, plus another 3 who are equally "left field thinkers", I asked them to think outside the box, which is what they are doing and I think we may end up with some extraordinary clarity.

Some of the feed back I have had already is very KISS and very enlightening.

Got to admit that super happy that a Long Term PHS has been considered and has gotten so far thought the process but the fact that apathy has struck once again as it always dose, it needs human intervention, is always a issue, and always will be a issue.

Why don't you pursue LTP and I will pursue a app base LPHS, then we have a choice which is sensational!

jB

Hey JB
Yeh no worries. Just thought I would let you know (if you or others didn't) the background of what was already there and voted it those years ago. Might of saved some work to get that happening again if it was a similar idea to what is being investigated now.
It will be interesting to see what the final product is. I like most just want fun and fair sailing.
Cheers Jamie

 

[JulianB]

Hi Jamie, in answer to your "Just out of interest. What's the change and chat?" When I speak of reading tea-leaves, that's just me looking at things like the lack of interest in the SMS division at Airlie and the quite considerable interest in Trailables, obviously I was not sailing SB in Port Lincoln in 2007, may well have been sailing Tris, we took Trilogy there once or twice, but what has changed is that the Tea-leaves are showing interest in CBH or LPHS and that SB's are alive and well.

What I am thinking, and I try not to pre-empt the Peter/Tony's of this world is that with modern tech, it should be possible, to turn on your phone, select an appropriate app, go sailing, and then based on your performance whilst sailing with that "tracking" happening, that a realistic "rating" can be sort for your boat.

In a very pure world, you could go for a Wednesday afternoon sail, no race, just go out and sail around some buoys.
In reality if you did that, someone independent would have to "observe".
Far easier if you did it in a race, bigger the race the more confidence others would have in you not "bending the rules".

My guess is initially, we would pick events, so Super 30 Series, Lake McQuarie bash (in November), Bay to Bay, Geloong or Port Lincoln, because if we pick those then verification that your not bending the rules is simpler, not fool proof but simpler.

Then going further, based on data that this app collects, at midnight every-night possibly, or every Monday night, it up-dates. Dose not require any human intervention, it's built into the software.

Once a year, at say the ABSA AGM, we chose the parameters, and that's it, we get a geek to go in and change the settings and lock it for a year.

One or 2 years down the track, after it has collected data it would know that 6Pac in 12knts of wind does 6.75 knots. We decide that anything beyond +/- 1-knts is someone being creative, so it simply disregards that result, so that would deter foxing.

We decide if it's 10-15 or 20 races in the "long-tail", we decide if it's 15% max and 1% min, and then if someone comes to ABWR with only 5 "sanctioned" races completed then race 1 = 2% weight, 2= 3%, 3=4%, 4=5% now that dose not equal 15% and it would need tweaks but you get the drift. If you had say 10 race completed then approx 1/2 those %. , 15 race more like 1/4 and if you had done all 20 races then 1st race of a event like ABRW you would only move +/- 1% max. We could event chose to suspend movement or 1/2 movement (so max of 0.5%) during a event.

We can get to the point where we give RC a tool, because the app knows were every-boat is, (and we know where the finish line is) as they cross the finish line they either press a button, or the app gives the time. (huge safety benefit there also, BTW)

Then the app could have a rolling up-date of places, which gets initially predicted, and then up-dated as each boat crosses the finish line.

Obviously the RC has to verify everything, but in 5years time this will be common place.

All this can happen without any human intervention other than, once a year, someone (we all) sets the parameters.

To fund this we charge for the MCE plaques, you change bits, you pay say $10 or maybe $20 for a plaque.

49er we plaque, all sails, all 3 bits of the mast, (so if you have a 2 piece mast (like I will) I have to buy an extra plaque), spin pole, foils, we should also probably plaque the bulb and the hull.

So in the case of my new boat
1 mainsail
possible 3 jibs
2 spinnakers
1 spin-pole
1 fin
1 rudder
1 bulb &
1 hull
so 11, in total so if we charge $20 per plaque, they cost approx $USD3 each (the consecutive numbering is expensive and it can't wash off with acetone) so 11 x 20 - 11 x (say $4AUD for the plaque) $176.

At rego, we have already the list of your plaques, so unless you want to change something, you just register.
If you want to register something non-critical, like replacing like for like, you take a 0.5% adjustment.
If you want a new bigger #1 spin, you take a 1% adjustment. (bigger main, 1/2ve the weight of your bulb, etc etc)
We decide on these numbers at the AGM.

Compliance is another thing, and again that needs decisions at AGM's, but you can get crew person from another boat to sign you off. In the 49er, the IM wanders the boat park at 1am checking numbers of the top 5, we could have a automatic, win a race, your checked policy.

Get a new spin, you buy a new plaque, and maybe that's $40 or $50 (in the 49er each sail plaque is $USD100, in the 29er it's $USD60)

That's it, no measurement needed, no arguments about cheating or swapping or fixing.
You do need to be diligent during say Super 30 races, so Yorky will have to ensure that I am using my "certified bits".

I would still have boats measured and published, it's meant to be a development class, so more information the better. But you don't have to!

That's a lot of me brainstorming, I will be very interested to hear what Peter comes back with, I'm doing coffee with him Wednesday week!

His brain is significantly - smarter is the wrong word - trained is possibly better - than mine.

jB