Is the SMS Rule Broken, I Think NOT

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
Very small correction to my previous post.

WRT the 49er we also plaque spreaders

And WRT my list, I did not include the 2 mast 1/2ves or the spreaders, so it would be 15 plaques.
I will let you do the maths.

And, the advantage of having a been-counter on your boat.

1661204742478.png


This is what happened to us WRT PHS, a massive correction after race 2 (I should not has steered R2).
28mins ahead in R2, you get slogged with a 100min penalty in R3, that's just stupid and it's why people game it!
My guess is our PHS rating should have been around 1.045.
 

Turkey Slapper

Super Anarchist
5,750
69
Queensland
To many words for me to read, but think of it like this!

No one on here except the original poster is a member of asba! Everyone has gone, and not just because of the sms!
And second, with only 4 members, a group reach around will pick the same winners! No handicap system can evolve any good with only up to 6 boats racing!

Here's a thought, build boats fast, not IPS party pontoons with opti rigs on them chasing a rating!
 

Turkey Slapper

Super Anarchist
5,750
69
Queensland
Very small correction to my previous post.

WRT the 49er we also plaque spreaders

And WRT my list, I did not include the 2 mast 1/2ves or the spreaders, so it would be 15 plaques.
I will let you do the maths.

And, the advantage of having a been-counter on your boat.

View attachment 536163

This is what happened to us WRT PHS, a massive correction after race 2 (I should not has steered R2).
28mins ahead in R2, you get slogged with a 100min penalty in R3, that's just stupid and it's why people game it!
My guess is our PHS rating should have been around 1.045.
Before you look into past results too hard, sailshit has an option to be manually changed by the host, you have to ask if it has or not and keep an eye on it, it's happened to us before, and has with top yacht as well with certain clubs! We may look into it, but we were made a bit higher than normal this year on phs so didnt bother running the numbers ourself! You can't beat a fiddled with system, and makes it impossible to try and work fair numbers out after if it has been artificially fiddled!
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
TS, the big advantage of a LPHS system is it handicaps based on actual performance, so it's a empirical measure.

Were as CBH, SMS, AMS, ORC & IRC all take a bunch of measurements and hope theoretically to deduce a boats performance.
That is it's fundamental flaw.

The big change is now we have apps that can do 99.99% of the work.
I have had a app doing this for different function now for over 5 years, I'm thinking maybe it could be morphed across.

A LPHS should mean that people design nice boats, rather than boats that rate.
And nice can have 1000's different meanings, nice might mean a pretty boat, a safe boat, may mean good to take the wife out with the kids or it could mean "balls to the wall performance".

Because it's a empirical measure, it will be accommodated, how well will depend on evolution and decisions made by you, me, everybody!
(my bit of Blue Brothers)

jB
 

Turkey Slapper

Super Anarchist
5,750
69
Queensland
TS, the big advantage of a LPHS system is it handicaps based on actual performance, so it's a empirical measure.

Were as CBH, SMS, AMS, ORC & IRC all take a bunch of measurements and hope theoretically to deduce a boats performance.
That is it's fundamental flaw.

The big change is now we have apps that can do 99.99% of the work.
I have had a app doing this for different function now for over 5 years, I'm thinking maybe it could be morphed across.

A LPHS should mean that people design nice boats, rather than boats that rate.
And nice can have 1000's different meanings, nice might mean a pretty boat, a safe boat, may mean good to take the wife out with the kids or it could mean "balls to the wall performance".

Because it's a empirical measure, it will be accommodated, how well will depend on evolution and decisions made by you, me, everybody!
(my bit of Blue Brothers)

jB
The old cbh was that, and why it worked so well with existing like boats!

We have hundreds of races of data correlated for sportboat type boats if your ever wanting to look into how boats have performed in the past and try and invent a system, hit me up! But as mentioned a lot in here, the handicapping of different era boats together is only a small part of the problem! To have racing you need a fleet! With a fleet comes the fun! That's been taken away by a few self-interest attention whores, get the boats and members back and the class might stand a chance!
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
Punisher, yes I forgot the "them", sorry. Great movie, up there with Hunt for Red October.

TS, getting personnel won't get us to where we want to get to, and I was not affected so I have no idea, but that's good in a way because I can do this without baggage.
 

moist

New member
7
4
Aus
How will lphs work for boats that don't enter a lot of races per year or people who predominantly race against large keel boats but still want to occasionally travel to a sport boat regatta?
I guess collect data from their local club and kinda make a best guess?

Also, sorry for the thread tangent, does anyone sail in mixed dinghy/cat/sportboat/trailer fleets? Attached is more or less an example of lphs ratings for one of my local clubs, does the ratings look about on par? I've got the e7, suffers a bit when I'm trying to compete on a catamaran/a sail course

20220824_091140.jpg
 

Berndty

Member
98
12
qld aus
How will lphs work for boats that don't enter a lot of races per year or people who predominantly race against large keel boats but still want to occasionally travel to a sport boat regatta?
I guess collect data from their local club and kinda make a best guess?

Also, sorry for the thread tangent, does anyone sail in mixed dinghy/cat/sportboat/trailer fleets? Attached is more or less an example of lphs ratings for one of my local clubs, does the ratings look about on par? I've got the e7, suffers a bit when I'm trying to compete on a catamaran/a sail course

View attachment 536389
The old asba LTP had to have the asba committee give a new boat the fleet a starting LTP. Then the results and top yacht system sorted it from there.
When a new boat or a boat with no TY data come to race, the asba committee would discuss and have a look at any of the results that we come find for that boat. If it was a class design boat (like a Shaw, Elliott, Thompson, or so on) we would look what the others the same were on for a LTP. Then the committee would allocate a starting LTP based on that knowledge. With a one off design it was a little harder but still seemed to work OK using the the race results process and comparing it back to our fleet.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
I believe that Peter/Tony will throw the old concept of a benchmark boat out the window.
Instead, come up with Nm(or M) / hour (could me m/sec) concept.

We had a super brief conversation about that, but if you do that, then the reason for using existing events is verification your not bending the rules rather than competing against a bench mark.

If that's the case, then you still end up with a reasonable rating.

This is all way beyond my pay-grade.

Going Wednesday arvo Farr40, beer can racing, maybe that will clear my head out.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
I promised I would come back to you post a conversation with Peter.
A few of you contact me not only to find out what was happening, but also to warn me off.
People within the industry try and warn me off sportsboats and that did not work, so warning me off LTPHS was probably futile.

Anyway, I did have a conversation with Mike (Pres of ABSA) he asked me to generate a 2 pager (which I did) and it was presented to the ASBA committee last Friday.

I am not on the committee so the next action of the board are up to them but:-

a) I believe that there is little appetite for the existing SMS, and even less appetite that it will be modified into something that people can gain confidence in.
b) That the ASBA have a range of options in CBH, IRC & ORC either as is or "tweaked" plus LTPHS. and that
c) sometime in the next few weeks, that a range of options will be put to the members to vote on.

To be honest, I am not yet a member because my boat is not yet on the water, so I don't believe it appropriate that I decide the direction of the future of ASBA even though I am heavily committed.

You get to chose what ever you would like to run with and I will make a decision (most likely to comply with you decision) once I actually get to the water and start to compete. We have already decided to get a CHB, IRC & ORC rating, so if we happened to also comply with LTPHS, so be it!

I have attached my 2 pager to Mike, which some of you will probably get in the next few days, anyway, just to be transparent.

That's me on this matter until after the ASBA has it's deliberation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thursday, 1 September 2022​

Hi Michael,



Thanks for taking my phone calls.

I hasten to state that I really don’t need to do this and have been warned off by some good friends with in the SportsBoat communities but if I don’t do it who will! I think from your comments, also from the POV of what happened in Airlie and other events WRT the low turn out in SMS events along with your comments re their (SMS) attitude that I really need to give this a good shake.

Add to that, Peter is pretty enthusiastic from a pure maths POV and Brodie is equally enthusiastic from a App POV that we could do something special.

OK, going right to the hub of it, what I am being told is that all we are really talking about is taking an existing platform, be it TopYachts or SailSys PHS system and adding a “Long Tail”.

Both you and Peter referred to Golf (Peter also referred to Swimming) as handicap systems that worked, you both came at it from different angles but your “8 best (scores/races) in the last 20” is quite brilliant. Obviously, Golf has worked out that 8/20 stops gaming.

So the idea is that we would go in, take say the FE29R TopYachts PHS rating which is approx. 1.046 and then apply a Long Tail to that results and over the next 8-20 races refine it base on a Long Tail PHS system [LTPHS].

Very obviously all the next 8 races would count in full, but as you got to the 9th and then 10th and so on,” the Golf” sorting would cut in and by the 15th it would be very refined and by the 20th you would have a hi degree of confidence that the right PHS had been found.

How that is then implemented into practice is really up to ASBA and the members.

Presently, (whether actually or effectively), there is a possible 10% adjustment/correction per day in PHS. You could decide that if you have 10 of the 20 possible “qualifying” race completed then max adjustment per day is reduced to ½ - 5% and if you have completed all 20 “qualifying” races then max adjustment would be reduced to 1%.

In an event you could chose to suspend that “adjustment” or better ½ ve it.

Just to be clear, you go into an event with say 10 qualifying races then your max possible adjustment is 5%, if you advocated ½ ving it, then your max adjustment would be 2.5%,

This would make it self-policing.

In the short term, this should be done long-hand for 2 reasons,

  • The likes of Peter need to get a handle on the process &
  • There is not enough data to build a App yet
My guess is this would be a 6 month process, it could start using data from Airlie beach, or Hammo and by the start of the travelling season next year, we could have something in place.

Longer term, this could be fully App based process, with only the “levers” being set once a year at a ASBA AGM.

Funding and Compliance

The best way to fund this will be via compliance tags, so by that you would sell, in the case of my new boat, 15 x ASBA IHC (In House Certified) plaques. They cost about $USD3 each, they have a consecutive serial number and don’t smudge when wiped with acetone (hence the expense).

You pick a number, say $AUD50 each, so in my case $AUD 750 as a once off fee to register my boat.

(And you can discount for existing boats, say ½ ve the fee)

That’s it, no need to measure anything, because it all performance based.

I would however suggest that you get Sailmaker data on sail area’s and dimensions, plus basic hull dimensions, you basically are designing a very simple box rule.

Modifications to an existing boat

Peter commented that the biggest performance change would be the skipper/crew. That and other major changes like bigger sails, lighter bulb would/could attract a 1% penalty.

More minor changes like replacing like-for-like existing sails or smaller sails could attract a ½ % penalty.

But leave the other factors/lever setting in place and it will quickly sort itself out.

A change would have to be notified, and if it is a part, then a new IHC plaque would need to be purchased at say $AUD100 (29er is $USD60 & a 49er is $USD100/plaque) and the new number recorded.

At an event, you would simply come with a list of serial numbers and have them verified by a competitor!

The future

Year down the track, we could have an App that did all of this, you can choose if it up-dates daily, weekly or monthly, and it would just do it.

We could get even greater accuracy in that the App can be used during races, it can score, it can give real time data and long-term trends. We can morph from course base performance rating to sailing based performance rating so Brain Partridge in SA, can go for a sail and his LTPHS could be up-dated/enhanced without the need to sail in a “sanctioned” race.

You can add gizmos to it that would dramatically add individual performance reporting data.

And from there, you could have the worldwide leading rating system.



Let me know what you want to do?



Julian
 

Turkey Slapper

Super Anarchist
5,750
69
Queensland
So how did the survey go?

President spammed every Facebook page with the survey that has sportboat type boats, (Just like lukewit did in the last regime), after being asked personally to reply to questions asked, comments given, nothing, crickets! If the asba wants change, the comity needs to balls up, publish where the issues are, but no, nothing, gone into lockdown, no answers!

WTF asba! You want change? Listen to your ex members, as there is none now!

Then this week, ex president shows how a iso test is conducted!

Say the safe word!!!!!!!!!

Screenshot_20220927-090035_Gallery.jpg
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
Well that's a plus, publishing the results, well done Mike and the Committee.
GT commented that I need to join the assoc, so I have just done so. Least I can do!
Boat is not going to hit the water until 2nd week in Nov, 10 days in Europe, sister's wake, all making the delay inevitable.

Really looking fwd to CBH or IRC, really don't care, and really don't need to do LTPHS, but if that's what you vote for, I will put the wheels in motion.

Heard (1st hand) Skeeter is now doing Port Lincoln, maybe a re-scheduling of the Nats should be high on the ABSA agenda!
People are voting again with their feet, I really don't need another bit of Silver (and I may well not win) so it needs to be more than Titled event for me and obviously others to attend.

But now I'm a pending member, I need to try and support the Assoc.
 

Turkey Slapper

Super Anarchist
5,750
69
Queensland
Cbh or irc? Remember, the original poster, and his buddy are still members, (hence why a lot of us arnt) and has to go to a vote to have it changed! With 16 members, you makes 17 the way I read it, don't need many to vote for sms for it to stay!

Curious why, after all the discussion here, and on other social media platform forms, where most of the conversations are happening out side of yacht club bars, there has been no follow up answers, defence, comments, from either Ted, or the Facebook pages from the original posters their either!

Why is this?
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
TS if "we" as an association chose to stay with SMS then all that happens is "we" as people who sail the boats will go sailing in non ASBA events as is presently happening. I don't see this as a make or break decision for me, I will still do PL & B-B & AB & Super30 etc. So will a lot of you (I hope)

The Nats conflict with PL anyway.
Not My Problem, not yours either.

People like Airlie will go were the people are, they always have.

That was a classic case in point.

Let's just hope sanity prevails and we can move fwd.

jB
 




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