Is the SMS Rule Broken, I Think NOT

[Turkey Slapper]

Yep we are all still racing up here! And like Airlie great fleets, with no involvement of the asba has created the bigger fleets!

Sms, while an issue, isnt the only one, we all within the class know that! They are using it as the scapegoat!

Till they grow balls, and fix the main issue, there will never be confidence within that fleet competing against them that there will be a fair race/regatta! And that it's self is the biggest shame, and after years of pushing for policing, it never came, so the fleet went!

Good luck guys!

 

[JulianB]

TS, very very happy to leave all that shite to you to mull over.
I just want to go sailing and drink red-wine with mates.
Sailing in non-affiliated events is not just a real option, but is happening most of the time

But, if all of us joined the association, and voted for change, then change will happen.
I have enjoyed SB's and GT's was on my case, (to join) so that's my excuse, plus if you aren't involved you have no right to complain.

Doing the same thing (abstaining from the association) and expecting a different result is the 1st sign of insanity!

 

[Berndty]

It's funny the person that started this post has not renewed his SMS rating for the new year. Must have real faith in the system??

 

[Turkey Slapper]

TS, very very happy to leave all that shite to you to mull over.
I just want to go sailing and drink red-wine with mates.
Sailing in non-affiliated events is not just a real option, but is happening most of the time

But, if all of us joined the association, and voted for change, then change will happen.
I have enjoyed SB's and GT's was on my case, (to join) so that's my excuse, plus if you aren't involved you have no right to complain.

Doing the same thing (abstaining from the association) and expecting a different result is the 1st sign of insanity!

In your opinion, call us insane! No problem! We were all members for a lot longer than the people that have killed the class have been, and powers to be did nothing, why bother any more when nothing was done in the past?

You saw the calibre of the instigators at Airlie, you want to be associated with that performance, and tarred with that brush, knock yourself out! The longer you guys condone that kind behaviour, the longer you won't have a fleet to race against! Win win eh!

 

[Turkey Slapper]

It's funny the person that started this post has not renewed his SMS rating for the new year. Must have real faith in the system??

Or just like other social media polls and posts, had any interaction with the sailors at all! They really have the best interests of all at heart!

 

[MATTVB]

Can someone point me in the right direction to where the stability requirements are for a sportsboat? (rule / testing method) Changing to a CBH handicap system should be a step in the right direction but to me the elephant in the room is stability or lack of it by a lot of boats. A lot of these boats are currently not even close to self righting (with sails and especially a spinnaker up).

 

[Jethrow]

@MATTVB I saw this on FB today... https://www.sailingresources.org.au/news/where-to-get-cbh-information/

 

[Berndty]

Can someone point me in the right direction to where the stability requirements are for a sportsboat? (rule / testing method) Changing to a CBH handicap system should be a step in the right direction but to me the elephant in the room is stability or lack of it by a lot of boats. A lot of these boats are currently not even close to self righting (with sails and especially a spinnaker up).

At the end of the day the base line for a sports boat in Australia is Australian sailing special regulations for a minimum of cat 5. This is also in the Asba constitution and ABRW which is one of the highest cat rated races we do. If you go to the Aus Sailing resources website you will find those regulations. In that regulation under cat 5 there were 3 or 4 different options from memory for a boat to test to. A boat has to pass anyone of those tests. People have suggested that the ISO method is the easiest to pass with the "lightest ballast" but a Navel Engineer has to sign off on it and that could be a costly exercise. The ASBA committee of last year did bring out a cheap and easy ISO test method using a Engineer in Sydney (I think) to sign off on it. The talk of the town was that method was not to standard that a ISO test was done on production boats built around the world and that have to pass ISO 12217-2 to be imported.

 

[MATTVB]

I spoke to the ratings manager at sailing.org.au and stability is going to part of the CBH measurement process for the 2023/24 season. Exactly how much stability a particular boat requires and how its calculated and tested I am not yet sure. No doubt this information will become available in due course.

 

[Goodvibes]

Sports boats and one-offs are for people trying to find a loophole that will enable them to win. The rules will always be shafted as wrong by those who do not win.

Real competitive sailing does not require the winner to be calculated, they are recorded as they cross the line.

 

[MATTVB]

Sports boats and one-offs are for people trying to find a loophole that will enable them to win. The rules will always be shafted as wrong by those who do not win.

Real competitive sailing does not require the winner to be calculated, they are recorded as they cross the line.

You forgot to start your comment with "in my opinion". If sailing a one design does it for you - then go for gold. You could also argue that people that sail one design don't have the skills or knowledge to develop and sail a one off design that does not have a 50 page tuning guide telling them what to do.

 

[Goodvibes]

You forgot to start your comment with "in my opinion". If sailing a one design does it for you - then go for gold. You could also argue that people that sail one design don't have the skills or knowledge to develop and sail a one off design that does not have a 50 page tuning guide telling them what to do.

"You could also argue that" after the race is over, sports boats can always have an excuse. The handicap system is broken.

The one-designer's just have to suck it up and work out how to do better next time, or 'go to the room' with their grievances.

But then after being a handicapper for perfomance based stuff, I have little sympathy for whiny little bitch's who accost the officials before and after the race about the injustice of it all.

 

[Berndty]

I spoke to the ratings manager at sailing.org.au and stability is going to part of the CBH measurement process for the 2023/24 season. Exactly how much stability a particular boat requires and how its calculated and tested I am not yet sure. No doubt this information will become available in due course.

Very interesting because as a approved aus sailing CBH and Sports Boat measurer I have not heard anything of the sorts...

 

[Berndty]

Sports boats and one-offs are for people trying to find a loophole that will enable them to win. The rules will always be shafted as wrong by those who do not win.

Real competitive sailing does not require the winner to be calculated, they are recorded as they

Sports boats and one-offs are for people trying to find a loophole that will enable them to win. The rules will always be shafted as wrong by those who do not win.

Real competitive sailing does not require the winner to be calculated, they are recorded as they cross the line.

So any mix fleet trailer sailer or sports boat racing should just be all for shits and giggles??? One of the biggest races/regattas in Australia runs CBH and a regatta performance handicap. Must be just for shits and giggles as its not OD. The numbers of that race (which is the Bay to Bay Trailable Yacht Race) rivals the Sydney to Hobart. So, All those owners are just going out of their way to buy what they want rather than buying a one design boat that is the flavour of their club that they sail in.... come on please.... you make that comment when the RL24s nationals are about to hold their biggest ever fleet at the host club or nationals. It will be hosted by Southport Yacht Club. You can not tell me a 30 plus year old or more boat and any those boats would measure as strict class!!! I bet if a measurer done a full measurer on all of the boats, the Input the numbers into the CBH ( or any other rating system) there would only be 2 or 3 boats maybe close to being the same.... but all those boats can turn around and race mixed fleet the next day...
But hang one class design is the way? What's the biggest OD Trailerable class in Australia at the moment. A VX1?? Yes ok good/fast boat. I even looked at buying one. But didn't want to just race at RQ in Qld or a few other selected clubs in aus. My mixed fleet sports boat/trailer sailer complies with aus sailing Cat 5 and I can race in regattas up and down east and west coast. I'm not confined to windward leeward racing in a sheltered bay as I have Cat 5 compliance and a CBH, and most of all... like others, we chose to race and use our mixed fleet sports boats or trailer sailers at passage and or windward leeward regattas, no restriction.

 

[Goodvibes]

So any mix fleet trailer sailer or sports boat racing should just be all for shits and giggles??? One of the biggest races/regattas in Australia runs CBH and a regatta performance handicap. Must be just for shits and giggles as its not OD. The numbers of that race (which is the Bay to Bay Trailable Yacht Race) rivals the Sydney to Hobart. So, All those owners are just going out of their way to buy what they want rather than buying a one design boat that is the flavour of their club that they sail in.... come on please.... you make that comment when the RL24s nationals are about to hold their biggest ever fleet at the host club or nationals. It will be hosted by Southport Yacht Club. You can not tell me a 30 plus year old or more boat and any those boats would measure as strict class!!! I bet if a measurer done a full measurer on all of the boats, the Input the numbers into the CBH ( or any other rating system) there would only be 2 or 3 boats maybe close to being the same.... but all those boats can turn around and race mixed fleet the next day...
But hang one class design is the way? What's the biggest OD Trailerable class in Australia at the moment. A VX1?? Yes ok good/fast boat. I even looked at buying one. But didn't want to just race at RQ in Qld or a few other selected clubs in aus. My mixed fleet sports boat/trailer sailer complies with aus sailing Cat 5 and I can race in regattas up and down east and west coast. I'm not confined to windward leeward racing in a sheltered bay as I have Cat 5 compliance and a CBH, and most of all... like others, we chose to race and use our mixed fleet sports boats or trailer sailers at passage and or windward leeward regattas, no restriction.

Been in the Bay2Bay race more than ten times on my boat. Did it last year on someone else's so I think I understand it and mixed fleet racing well enough. That is the experience I am commenting with here.

I do not take the calculated results seriously. The only thing to get excited about are is how you went against boats of the same type as yours. Even then it's a joke. There are modifications that no one checks. Some strip the boat out, some take the kitchen sink as well because they plan on sailing back to Tin Can or continue cruising for a week.

I have also sailed up to National level on one-designs and there is a huge difference.

There is nothing more pathetic than a skipper complaining about her handicap figure compared to another class. It's a fudge not a science, not to be taken too seriously. The position in the class is the best indicator of how you went.

And I have the same opinion about the S2H. All the one-offs are attempting to game the system. "Yeah well done guys but the weather this year suited your boat. Lucky hey!"

I did not say that everyone should go one-design, I am saying don't take handicap systems seriously, accept the imperfections because you cannot eliminate them.

 

[Goodvibes]

... you make that comment when the RL24s nationals are about to hold their biggest ever fleet at the host club or nationals. It will be hosted by Southport Yacht Club. You can not tell me a 30 plus year old or more boat and any those boats would measure as strict class!!! I bet if a measurer done a full measurer on all of the boats, the Input the numbers into the CBH ( or any other rating system) there would only be 2 or 3 boats maybe close to being the same.... but all those boats can turn around and race mixed fleet the next day...

Exactly, and you take a handicap system for these things seriously?

Sailing like most other sports is rife with cheating, from Americas Cup to the B2B.

The responsibility for enforcing the class rules lies with the skippers, they can protest if a boat does not conform to its Measuring Certificate. Would be open an shut case, I have done that at a Nationals. BUT, because most of the rest of the fleet are also cheating, no one wants to do that, they prefer to bad mouth anyone who beats them instead and brand anyone who complains about them as a shit stirrer.

Bay 2 Bay is a classic. Boats are required to have a keel locking system to prevent it slipping out if the boat capsizes, and are required to have it down while racing. But in the B2B, on a still day you can hear boats raising them to go over sand banks or just reduce drag downhill, either the electric motors or hand winches. It's cheating and potentially dangerous but 'everyone does it' so no protests. Impossible to prove if they continue to be dishonest about it. I have never raised it unless grounded. Kites are popped that are clearly over-size but ... nothing happens, after endless hours of anal analysis of handicaps numbers. It's a fucking joke and as long as you understand and accept that, it's tolerable to go sailing.

Like the RL's have not, no one in the B2B ever checks any aspect of any boat that I have seen since the first race I did on the late 1990's. There are too many of them anyway. This is why I don't take it seriously, neither should anyone else, just enjoy sailing.

 

[(p)Irate]

So what actually is the rule about measurement for CBH?

I'm temporarily working in the Whitsundays. For my sins I bought an SB20 to sail up here as it was only $2K more expensive than replacing my T7 trailer, let alone the cost of the Spirit of Tasmania plus 5 days on the road. Anyhow ...

I wasn't sure how to go about getting a CBH rating for the boat which is in one-design spec. I looked at the AS CBH website and it wasn't exactly clear so I sent this message to the [email protected] on 19 December:

Hi

I have a Laser SB20 in one design. To get a CBH rating do I need to get the boat measured and weighed or can I be given the CBH on your spreadsheet for the class?

Cheers

By 22 December, not having received a reply, I sent the same message to GRS whom I know as an aquaintance from Hobart. He replied the next day:

You do not need to get it measured for CBH because there is a rating for the class you can view here.

Nonetheless, if you do wish to get it measured, I suggest you read this, and this. The reason I still draw this to your attention is that you might get a better rating. The class provide a minimum weight which you should, if weighed, be greater than. The class also provide maximum sail areas which you should, if you get them measured, be less than.

Great, I thought, two options. Easy option, do nothing and just take the class rating, or, if I could be arsed, get a measurer to measure it. Apparently there is one at WSC.

Then on Monday I finally get a reply from Chris Zonca, the Ratings Manager at AS:

Hi

IRC/ORC measurers can do this for you the list is available here - https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/austsailclubs/files/bozkm0dzeunjgd4b.pdf

So now I'm really confused. I do have to get it measured?? And what's more, if AS is now administering this rule, can we trust anything they say?

 

[JulianB]

I actually think it's pretty simple.

Either you accept a per-determined Class CBH -

or

You get it measured.

I simply looked up AS list of measure-er(s), pick one, and he came down and it took about 3 hrs.

Yes there is a fee to pay, but for 3 hrs of work, and then probably another 2 hrs driving time, entering everything, so there should be.

Don't get hung up about it, just do it!

jB

 

[PUNISHER]

yes, you can get a different rating if you measure boat, rather than take the pre-determined CBH.. but how much smaller are your sails than class? how much heavier is your boat than minimum. id suggest your sail plan would be 1-2% off max? your hull ( for a one design from manufacturer..) probably again 5% max? your SB20 might go from 0.800 to 0.803?..

 

[Capt Araldite]

I actually think it's pretty simple.

Either you accept a per-determined Class CBH -

or

You get it measured.

I simply looked up AS list of measure-er(s), pick one, and he came down and it took about 3 hrs.

Yes there is a fee to pay, but for 3 hrs of work, and then probably another 2 hrs driving time, entering everything, so there should be.

Don't get hung up about it, just do it!

jB

And JB you ended up with me