J/111 Goes Sailing...

hermetic

Super Anarchist
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190
10HotRB0795.JPG


10HotRB0804.JPG
Pole deflection

 

left hook

Super Anarchist
7,473
5
Ran out of time to get it installed prior to NYYC/Block. On the winter list.
Right on.

With all of these examples above, there is even more upward force with a taught, close angle Code Zero.
You are correct and more than anything this is why some boats are going with the bobstay. There's also significant "in" force on the end of the pole from a fully loaded up zero that needs to be contended with.

 
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JL92S

Super Anarchist
1,779
427
UK
wasn't there one 111 that had a short fixed sprit for the code 0? also shortening the pole wouldn't be the best solution because that would put the tack of the sail off centre

 

solosailor

Super Anarchist
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San Francisco Bay
Invisible Hand has a short 'Prod" for flying the Code-0. The pole doesn't allow the Code-0 to fly on center line unless your at full extension which is way to far out for a tack point of a Code-0 on the J/111 (at least based on our sailmakers design) and would require a bobstay.

/monthly_09_2011/post-146-042705300%201315923609_thumb.jpg

 

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mmayer

Member
75
7
Invisible Hand has a short 'Prod" for flying the Code-0. The pole doesn't allow the Code-0 to fly on center line unless your at full extension which is way to far out for a tack point of a Code-0 on the J/111 (at least based on our sailmakers design) and would require a bobstay.
We used our North C0 at the start of the mac and we were able to go at least 1.5 knots faster than the rest of our section with regular kites up. We fit a removable bobstay that is critical to making the C0 work on our fully extended pole. Once we figured it out, the bobstay was a very easy setup, requiring just a hole just opposite the existing drain hole in the anchor locker.

Here is video of it from SA at the start - http://www.justin.tv/onthewateranarchy/b/290331682 Go to about 37 minutes in.

 

bshores

Member
208
0
Houston, TX
Ran out of time to get it installed prior to NYYC/Block. On the winter list.
Right on.

With all of these examples above, there is even more upward force with a taught, close angle Code Zero.
You are correct and more than anything this is why some boats are going with the bobstay. There's also significant "in" force on the end of the pole from a fully loaded up zero that needs to be contended with.

I assume everyone is talking about using a bob stay for non class events and distance racing, correct? Is there talk of making bobstays class legal, as I'm sure the rules are still in the adoption phase. Any extra reinforcement needed for the hole in the bow?

 

Goblew

Member
325
6
Detroit Area
Invisible Hand has a short 'Prod" for flying the Code-0. The pole doesn't allow the Code-0 to fly on center line unless your at full extension which is way to far out for a tack point of a Code-0 on the J/111 (at least based on our sailmakers design) and would require a bobstay.
pole halfway back would put it off center by what, maybe 3 or 4 inches? would that really make much difference in performance from one tack to the other? I wouldn't think so. my sailmaker doesn't think so. I'd like to keep the boat as simple as possible and not have to worry about attaching/removing bobstay's all the time.

 

hermetic

Super Anarchist
4,418
190
Invisible Hand has a short 'Prod" for flying the Code-0. The pole doesn't allow the Code-0 to fly on center line unless your at full extension which is way to far out for a tack point of a Code-0 on the J/111 (at least based on our sailmakers design) and would require a bobstay.
pole halfway back would put it off center by what, maybe 3 or 4 inches? would that really make much difference in performance from one tack to the other? I wouldn't think so. my sailmaker doesn't think so. I'd like to keep the boat as simple as possible and not have to worry about attaching/removing bobstay's all the time.
Agree that 3 - 4" won't make much of a difference - but when you deploy a 0 you want to grind it up w/o backstay, then pump the backstay to set the luff. Without a bobstay even the retracted pole will bend, defeating the purpose of the 0.

The boat is simple as shit, and if all you have to worry about is removing the bobstay for class racing - doesn't seem too harsh.

By the way - another 111 with a fully extended pole / bobstay designed 0 will be faster than a half extended pole design.

 

pjrs

Member
496
0
I'm pretty sure the first UK 111 put a purchase arrangement on the forepeak end of the pole out line. I think the idea was to crank it on after the pole was set to increase the compression acting against the bobstay - don't know how effective it would be given that once the poles out there's not much 'slack' to take up...

 
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edwinmontano

New member
6
0
Invisible Hand has a short 'Prod" for flying the Code-0. The pole doesn't allow the Code-0 to fly on center line unless your at full extension which is way to far out for a tack point of a Code-0 on the J/111 (at least based on our sailmakers design) and would require a bobstay.
pole halfway back would put it off center by what, maybe 3 or 4 inches? would that really make much difference in performance from one tack to the other? I wouldn't think so. my sailmaker doesn't think so. I'd like to keep the boat as simple as possible and not have to worry about attaching/removing bobstay's all the time.
Agree that 3 - 4" won't make much of a difference - but when you deploy a 0 you want to grind it up w/o backstay, then pump the backstay to set the luff. Without a bobstay even the retracted pole will bend, defeating the purpose of the 0.

The boat is simple as shit, and if all you have to worry about is removing the bobstay for class racing - doesn't seem too harsh.

By the way - another 111 with a fully extended pole / bobstay designed 0 will be faster than a half extended pole design.
Interesting comments about the C0. On hull 22 (MENTAL), we have a Code 0 that is set up to work about 18" to 24" extended. I figured a fully extended sprit would be be faster in some conditions, but not all.

Anyone have any comments about why a fully extended sprit would work better/worse? My feeling is that it would produce more helm especially when going to weather.

 

mmayer

Member
75
7
Invisible Hand has a short 'Prod" for flying the Code-0. The pole doesn't allow the Code-0 to fly on center line unless your at full extension which is way to far out for a tack point of a Code-0 on the J/111 (at least based on our sailmakers design) and would require a bobstay.
pole halfway back would put it off center by what, maybe 3 or 4 inches? would that really make much difference in performance from one tack to the other? I wouldn't think so. my sailmaker doesn't think so. I'd like to keep the boat as simple as possible and not have to worry about attaching/removing bobstay's all the time.
Agree that 3 - 4" won't make much of a difference - but when you deploy a 0 you want to grind it up w/o backstay, then pump the backstay to set the luff. Without a bobstay even the retracted pole will bend, defeating the purpose of the 0.

The boat is simple as shit, and if all you have to worry about is removing the bobstay for class racing - doesn't seem too harsh.

By the way - another 111 with a fully extended pole / bobstay designed 0 will be faster than a half extended pole design.
Interesting comments about the C0. On hull 22 (MENTAL), we have a Code 0 that is set up to work about 18" to 24" extended. I figured a fully extended sprit would be be faster in some conditions, but not all.

Anyone have any comments about why a fully extended sprit would work better/worse? My feeling is that it would produce more helm especially when going to weather.
Ed, Im no naval architect or sail designer, but I think since the center of effort moves more forward with the pole further out, there is less helm. We havent had problems with the helm with ours, except when the boat is completely overpowered we should be in the jib anyway.

 

solosailor

Super Anarchist
4,066
816
San Francisco Bay
pole halfway back would put it off center by what, maybe 3 or 4 inches? would that really make much difference in performance from one tack to the other? I wouldn't think so. my sailmaker doesn't think so. I'd like to keep the boat as simple as possible and not have to worry about attaching/removing bobstay's all the time.
Well the design of the Hand's Code-0 has the tack about 1ft from the bow, so using the spinnaker pole would have put it well off center-line.
 

Goblew

Member
325
6
Detroit Area
pole halfway back would put it off center by what, maybe 3 or 4 inches? would that really make much difference in performance from one tack to the other? I wouldn't think so. my sailmaker doesn't think so. I'd like to keep the boat as simple as possible and not have to worry about attaching/removing bobstay's all the time.
Well the design of the Hand's Code-0 has the tack about 1ft from the bow, so using the spinnaker pole would have put it well off center-line.
At 1 foot from the bow, it would be too far off centerline.

 

Daimond

Super Anarchist
4,118
0
SF Bay Area
Looks like a new J111 getting commisioned at Grand Marina, Alameda, Ca. I think that makes 3 in the bay area.

 
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