J/111 IRC TCC

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
not newbie just had to reregister, as so long since i bothered to use this site due to the abuse given to people who all share the same interest!

PHRF only seems to take account of how well boats are sailed not what sails they use. Can this really be true? If it is, why do they not adopt IRC optimised sails for class rules?
Not true - PHRF looks at performance features

In my opinion IRC optimised sails for a J109 look much more like US OD than they do UK, ie no overlapping jibs. The j109's which race predominantly IRC don't bother with the 140% genoas.

Anyway this is a J111 thread, a far far better boat.

 

GME

Member
214
0
J-111 owes the J-122 anywhere from 46 seconds - 1:30 per hour depending on the size of spinnakers chosen. Can barely sail boat for boat with the 122 in light to moderate conditions. Seems that the boat is a miss in IRC compared to the 122.

 

bshores

Member
208
0
Houston, TX
J-111 owes the J-122 anywhere from 46 seconds - 1:30 per hour depending on the size of spinnakers chosen. Can barely sail boat for boat with the 122 in light to moderate conditions. Seems that the boat is a miss in IRC compared to the 122.

Agreed, haven't seen the two side by side racing yet, but in the recent IRC East Coasts 2 well sailed J/111s got beat pretty handidly by J/122s. It's nice to see them give IRC a go, but this wasn't the original intention for the boat. I'm guessing IRC has something against the planing characteristics of the 111. I think it works out to be a much fairer fight under PHRF.

 

firestarter

Member
79
10
Annapolis
J-111 owes the J-122 anywhere from 46 seconds - 1:30 per hour depending on the size of spinnakers chosen. Can barely sail boat for boat with the 122 in light to moderate conditions. Seems that the boat is a miss in IRC compared to the 122.

Agreed, haven't seen the two side by side racing yet, but in the recent IRC East Coasts 2 well sailed J/111s got beat pretty handidly by J/122s. It's nice to see them give IRC a go, but this wasn't the original intention for the boat. I'm guessing IRC has something against the planing characteristics of the 111. I think it works out to be a much fairer fight under PHRF.
I'm the co-owner of one of the 111's that sailed in the IRC Mid-Atlantic's last weekend. We rated 1.122 (measured with our big kite) and while we got to fly it we didn't get the breeze to break her loose and really take advantage of the planing ability of the boat. The distance race only had 2 legs where we could use the kite but they were pretty short so we didn't get to see any real benefit for the ding on our rating. Saturday we got stuck in the one race that finished that day waiting for a left shift that never materialized and on Sunday we did pretty well. We even beat Ptarmigan in Sunday's second race on corrected time. :)

We managed to stay in contact with the 122s much of the time in many of the races and beat all of them boat for boat at least once so I think the boat can be competitive with them in the kind of racing we were doing although it did seem like the ratings helped them more than it did us.

Ultimately we finished the regatta ahead of one of the 122's and the other 111.

Contrast this to CRW where we came in 2nd to a 122 and beat another (plus some 120's) under a PHRF system. Even under PHRF we were able to beat one of the 122's boat for boat at least a couple times and were very close to them (19 seconds behind) in another in the first race series on a brand new boat with a brand new crew. It'll be interesting to see how the 111 stacks up under both systems over the next year or two.

 

Jambalaya

Super Anarchist
6,551
74
Hamble / Paris
firestarter - thanks for the update.

In terms of the recent discussion a few of us have posted this a number of times but in my opinion (having raced IRC for 12 years in 92/105/109)

The J122 was designed with IRC in mind following the success of the 109, on a W/L course I'd expect it to have the upper hand except in light air when it may get "stuck" vs lighter J111 (have seen the J111 perform in 5 knots and less and it's really quick) and also in planning conditions when the J111 can break loose. The IRC rating for the J111 is more favourable on passage races which are likely to incorporate more reaching where of course the 111 excells. The performance curve / polar diagram of the J111 was always likely to make that the case.

In terms of recent performances if brand new boats unfamiliar to their crew and not yet optimised in terms of sail development can be competitive with and even beat more established designs that's a very positive sign.

My own view is that as the owners, crews and sail makers get up to speed the J111 will be a strong performer in IRC w/l too

 

bshores

Member
208
0
Houston, TX
J-111 owes the J-122 anywhere from 46 seconds - 1:30 per hour depending on the size of spinnakers chosen. Can barely sail boat for boat with the 122 in light to moderate conditions. Seems that the boat is a miss in IRC compared to the 122.

Agreed, haven't seen the two side by side racing yet, but in the recent IRC East Coasts 2 well sailed J/111s got beat pretty handidly by J/122s. It's nice to see them give IRC a go, but this wasn't the original intention for the boat. I'm guessing IRC has something against the planing characteristics of the 111. I think it works out to be a much fairer fight under PHRF.
I'm the co-owner of one of the 111's that sailed in the IRC Mid-Atlantic's last weekend. We rated 1.122 (measured with our big kite) and while we got to fly it we didn't get the breeze to break her loose and really take advantage of the planing ability of the boat. The distance race only had 2 legs where we could use the kite but they were pretty short so we didn't get to see any real benefit for the ding on our rating. Saturday we got stuck in the one race that finished that day waiting for a left shift that never materialized and on Sunday we did pretty well. We even beat Ptarmigan in Sunday's second race on corrected time. :)

We managed to stay in contact with the 122s much of the time in many of the races and beat all of them boat for boat at least once so I think the boat can be competitive with them in the kind of racing we were doing although it did seem like the ratings helped them more than it did us.

Ultimately we finished the regatta ahead of one of the 122's and the other 111.

Contrast this to CRW where we came in 2nd to a 122 and beat another (plus some 120's) under a PHRF system. Even under PHRF we were able to beat one of the 122's boat for boat at least a couple times and were very close to them (19 seconds behind) in another in the first race series on a brand new boat with a brand new crew. It'll be interesting to see how the 111 stacks up under both systems over the next year or two.
Thanks for the recap, that sounds more promising for the 111 than I thought. I'm curious in the races where you beat the 122's boat for boat, was that a W/L course? What were the wind conditions?

 

Polaris

Super Anarchist
4,558
0
J-111 owes the J-122 anywhere from 46 seconds - 1:30 per hour depending on the size of spinnakers chosen. Can barely sail boat for boat with the 122 in light to moderate conditions. Seems that the boat is a miss in IRC compared to the 122.

Agreed, haven't seen the two side by side racing yet, but in the recent IRC East Coasts 2 well sailed J/111s got beat pretty handidly by J/122s. It's nice to see them give IRC a go, but this wasn't the original intention for the boat. I'm guessing IRC has something against the planing characteristics of the 111. I think it works out to be a much fairer fight under PHRF.
I'm the co-owner of one of the 111's that sailed in the IRC Mid-Atlantic's last weekend. We rated 1.122 (measured with our big kite) and while we got to fly it we didn't get the breeze to break her loose and really take advantage of the planing ability of the boat. The distance race only had 2 legs where we could use the kite but they were pretty short so we didn't get to see any real benefit for the ding on our rating. Saturday we got stuck in the one race that finished that day waiting for a left shift that never materialized and on Sunday we did pretty well. We even beat Ptarmigan in Sunday's second race on corrected time. :)

We managed to stay in contact with the 122s much of the time in many of the races and beat all of them boat for boat at least once so I think the boat can be competitive with them in the kind of racing we were doing although it did seem like the ratings helped them more than it did us.

Ultimately we finished the regatta ahead of one of the 122's and the other 111.

Contrast this to CRW where we came in 2nd to a 122 and beat another (plus some 120's) under a PHRF system. Even under PHRF we were able to beat one of the 122's boat for boat at least a couple times and were very close to them (19 seconds behind) in another in the first race series on a brand new boat with a brand new crew. It'll be interesting to see how the 111 stacks up under both systems over the next year or two.
Thanks for the recap, that sounds more promising for the 111 than I thought. I'm curious in the races where you beat the 122's boat for boat, was that a W/L course? What were the wind conditions?
Thanks for the recap. I sent a copy of it to our local HRB board as well as LMPHRF.

 

firestarter

Member
79
10
Annapolis
Friday the 21st was a 30 mile distance race that saw a lot of upwind sailing in 10-15k with gusts to 20+, probably 6 miles was with the kite the rest was jib & main in 2-3 foot chop.

Saturday was w/l racing but super light and they canceled the day after 1.5 races, we were seeing 3-6kts generally before the wind died. The water was flat.

Sunday was more w/l racing and the wind was like 6-10 kts but mostly hung around 8 if I recall on generally flat water again. This was the day we saw the most success against the 122s and probably the day when we were gelling the best as a crew. We kept mostly away from shore as much as possible which seemed to treat us well from a breeze perspective.

As you know there are a lot of other factors involved like blown starts, bad calls on the course (let's wait for a shift...), sail handling screw-ups and so on. When we're hitting on all cylinders we're effective against 120/122s and when we're not we get left behind in a big hurry. Just like everyone else.

 

Polaris

Super Anarchist
4,558
0
Thanks for the recap. I sent a copy of it to our local HRB board as well as LMPHRF.
A rating rule based upon posts on sailing anarchy, great where do I sign up ?
Being a brand new design, the PHRF rating originated from its fictitious IRC rating (which is too slow). Adjustments are being made in the off season. Stories like the first one above make for great lobbying.

Don't worry, it's IRC rating is still bought and paid to get first place trophies.

 
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firestarter

Member
79
10
Annapolis
Thanks for the recap. I sent a copy of it to our local HRB board as well as LMPHRF.
A rating rule based upon posts on sailing anarchy, great where do I sign up ?
Being a brand new design, the PHRF rating originated from its fictitious IRC rating (which is too slow). Adjustments are being made in the off season. Stories like the first one above make for great lobbying.

Don't worry, it's IRC rating is still bought and paid to get first place trophies.
Eh, I think the PHRF rating is just about right personally. We get screwed by Mumm 30s when its light and J/120s & 122s when it's bumpy or we spend too much time going upwind and the odd Farr 395 or Bene 40.7 when the conditions aren't in our sweet spot. We've done well against everything at one point or another but not all the time and I grumble about everyone else's ratings (we owe time to a J/120?!?!) as much as everyone else grumbles about ours.

Generally when nobody is happy I think things are probably right about where they should be...

 

Crash

Super Anarchist
5,017
965
SoCal
Thanks for the recap. I sent a copy of it to our local HRB board as well as LMPHRF.
A rating rule based upon posts on sailing anarchy, great where do I sign up ?
Being a brand new design, the PHRF rating originated from its fictitious IRC rating (which is too slow). Adjustments are being made in the off season. Stories like the first one above make for great lobbying.

Don't worry, it's IRC rating is still bought and paid to get first place trophies.
Eh, I think the PHRF rating is just about right personally. We get screwed by Mumm 30s when its light and J/120s & 122s when it's bumpy or we spend too much time going upwind and the odd Farr 395 or Bene 40.7 when the conditions aren't in our sweet spot. We've done well against everything at one point or another but not all the time and I grumble about everyone else's ratings (we owe time to a J/120?!?!) as much as everyone else grumbles about ours.

Generally when nobody is happy I think things are probably right about where they should be...
Polaris is never happy, so I guess it is about right!

 

Polaris

Super Anarchist
4,558
0
Thanks for the recap. I sent a copy of it to our local HRB board as well as LMPHRF.
A rating rule based upon posts on sailing anarchy, great where do I sign up ?
Being a brand new design, the PHRF rating originated from its fictitious IRC rating (which is too slow). Adjustments are being made in the off season. Stories like the first one above make for great lobbying.

Don't worry, it's IRC rating is still bought and paid to get first place trophies.
Eh, I think the PHRF rating is just about right personally. We get screwed by Mumm 30s when its light and J/120s & 122s when it's bumpy or we spend too much time going upwind and the odd Farr 395 or Bene 40.7 when the conditions aren't in our sweet spot. We've done well against everything at one point or another but not all the time and I grumble about everyone else's ratings (we owe time to a J/120?!?!) as much as everyone else grumbles about ours.

Generally when nobody is happy I think things are probably right about where they should be...
What is your PHRF rating?

 

firestarter

Member
79
10
Annapolis
Thanks for the recap. I sent a copy of it to our local HRB board as well as LMPHRF.
A rating rule based upon posts on sailing anarchy, great where do I sign up ?
Being a brand new design, the PHRF rating originated from its fictitious IRC rating (which is too slow). Adjustments are being made in the off season. Stories like the first one above make for great lobbying.

Don't worry, it's IRC rating is still bought and paid to get first place trophies.
Eh, I think the PHRF rating is just about right personally. We get screwed by Mumm 30s when its light and J/120s & 122s when it's bumpy or we spend too much time going upwind and the odd Farr 395 or Bene 40.7 when the conditions aren't in our sweet spot. We've done well against everything at one point or another but not all the time and I grumble about everyone else's ratings (we owe time to a J/120?!?!) as much as everyone else grumbles about ours.

Generally when nobody is happy I think things are probably right about where they should be...
What is your PHRF rating?
PHRF of the Chesapeake has us listed as a J-111 UCAS with a 42 rating.

http://www.phrfchesb...m/validlist.pdf

 
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