J/24 - Tillotson-Pearson vs Performance Sailcraft

[jamesmalcolm]

Is there any difference between the 2500 or so Tillotson-Pearson made J/24s and the 500 Performance Sailcraft J/24s or are they both generally the same? What is the difference between an American made J/24 vs and Italian or Argentinian one?

 

[Dogfish4255]

There could be at least a book, maybe two, written on the topic.  What sort of specifics are you looking for?  Are your interests racing, cruising, or just collecting a choice example at the bargain price in the current economic climate?

There are differences both minor, and some that could be considered by some to be major, but as any major championship results list can attest to, the 4-6 teammates aboard seem to be just as or more important than finding some supposed unicorn J24.

 

[Gouvernail]

About all that seems to matter is the keel was done in Austin 

 

[Gouvernail]

By Stu Johnstone?

There is a fellow in Austin who seems to have figured out how to accomplish the ultimate tweak on  J-22 and J-24 keels .

my J-22 is in his shop right now. Last week it got this new bulkhead. (sorry!! The photo rotated when I uploaded it )

 

[Not the fake Quattro]

But really...

The fastest keel on a J24 (current world champion) came from PNW.

 

[Varan]

But really...

The fastest keel on a J24 (current world champion) came from PNW.

Funny... I believe it came from the texan Gouv. Credit where it is (way past) due. Congrats. 

 

[Not the fake Quattro]

Yes, the boat he boat came from Texas.

The keel design was done in the PNW.  The credit is due an engineer in Gig Harbor.

 Several boats here have the same keel.

We spent a few weeks improving Furio before Miami.

 

[Varan]

Was so cool to see a Seattle boat win. They definitely earned it.

 

[Not the fake Quattro]

Varan,

I totally agree.  It was great to see on many levels.  KW did a masterful and complete job of preparing boat and crew. 

But its not over.  We have been discussing more ideas on how to make the boat even better.

 

[Bash24]

I have owned several J24s.  I had a Performance SailCraft boat and I can say they are a better quality than the TPI boats.  They were built slower with a little more care.  The keel was max forward and minimum thickness from the factory on a 1979 boat.  They took some time to fair the keel.  The boat was much more symmetrical than others I had been on.  It was also dead on minimum weight with no correctors.   Although I eventually pulled the verm, it never got soft around the keelbolts.  Don Trask was the builder of those boats and he was very proud of them.  He told me once that they were selling a lot of boats to San Fran so he wanted to make sure they would hold up.    

 

[Lex Teredo]

About all that seems to matter is the keel was done in Austin 

This is why the uprate/downrate button needs to include a LOL button.  Thanks Gouv, needed that. 

 

[Not the fake Quattro]

This is what I have been told.

Paul Bogataj is the designer of the keel shape.  He is a friend and we have had a few conversations about his designs and this boat specifically.  Harden used his design and did an over the top job of putting the shape on this boat and one or two others.  If you changed it at all you were going against the orders of the new owner.  He did ask for the hull epoxy to be touched up (wrinkles) but do not touch the keel.

We don't consider your work a factor in the worlds win.  sorry

Did you put the carbon rudder on the boat?

And its unclear in your post, are you claiming this is a Harden keel or your design?

The work I did with the owner here in Seattle was about deck layout, mast, mast slider, traveler, lifelines, new rudder, new strings, etc.

Quattro

 

[Gouvernail]

Did you put the carbon rudder on the boat?

Quattro

I know nothing about a carbon rudder on any J-24 ever.

I havent read the rules recently but my recollection is “rudders must be builder supplied.”

 

[J24TrickBag]

Yes, rudders must still be builder-supplied. If the Worlds winner somehow snuck a carbon rudder on, there'll be torches and pitchforks.

 

[Gouvernail]

Yes, rudders must still be builder-supplied. If the Worlds winner somehow snuck a carbon rudder on, there'll be torches and pitchforks.

Two rudders were sold with the boat. Each was a standard builder supplied rudder. 
I have deleted most of my comments as I am convinced the conversation was with the wrong person, in the  wrong place, for the wrong reasons. 
 

I had a lot of fun spending a few weeks bringing a really nice ten year old sailing toy up to “Wow!! That’s really pretty.”

Seeing it win a world championship a few weeks later was heart warming because I enjoyed interacting with the owner and gratifying because somebody used my product to accomplish exactly what he wanted to accomplish. 
 

One thing is  certain:

Had I steered the boat, it would not have won.

i think I am Probably done with this conversation. 

 

[WCB]

I think as always a lot of this has to do with the team, not the boat. Everybody is talking about a Texas keel but where I'm from, it was a Waterline Systems keel that was all the rage. Mookie, #2934 if memory serves, was the epitome of speed but it also depends upon the team sailing it and that team was top notch.

 

[Not the fake Quattro]

So disappointed you removed your post. 

Too bad really, I think we share a lot of the same interests.  I think we both love sailing.  We make our living on boats.  I think our strength is, and we get a great reward from making things work better.

Yes, two rudders came with the boat.  One was wrapped in carbon.  We shipped it off to an owner for his PHRF J24.  It was never used.

Quattro

 

[Gouvernail]

So disappointed you removed your post. 

Too bad really, I think we share a lot of the same interests.  I think we both love sailing.  We make our living on boats.  I think our strength is, and we get a great reward from making things work better.

Yes, two rudders came with the boat.  One was wrapped in carbon.  We shipped it off to an owner for his PHRF J24.  It was never used.

Quattro

I didn’t do the repair as I wont cross a class rule for any boat for any sailor  

but

i do remember something about a crack  around the lower gudgeon and some carbon in the repair.

I wouldn’t complain if somebody did that to his rudder but I would suggest that rudder never be used to try to win anything share anybody might care . 
 

Wrapping  the whole rudder would require major material removal to make room and... would take more time than building a new rudder....   I say a full wrap crosses to the wrong side of the Class rules.... Way past 

I deleted my descriptive posts because I didnt like the flow of the conversation or  mention of things that simply aren’t details that  need to be aired in a public forum.

The fact is I spent way over 100 hours on the boat. I don’t remember whether I used almost six gallons or almost eight gallons of VC Performance Epoxy.  
The boat wasn’t perfect when it left my shop. If I had schedule time to spend another fifty hours I could  have improved it just a little more but I couldn’t have made the boat any faster. 
 

I did all the work myself. The fantastic fellow who has worked with me for the last fifteen years and who spent 12 years at another sail boat repair shop before he joined my team  pretty much stopped by the hoist, watched, and shook his head. 
The boat came in as an ignored old sailing toy thst hadn’t had any maintenance in ten years and left with a  bottom that was as good as any other boat at the worlds. 
You have no idea how much I contributed to THAT  boat winning the worlds.

note: I believe the same five guys could have jumped on any of about fifty other boats and won, but without me, THAT boat probably wouldn’t have been that nice that soon. 

 

[jamesmalcolm]

I have owned several J24s.  I had a Performance SailCraft boat and I can say they are a better quality than the TPI boats.  They were built slower with a little more care.  The keel was max forward and minimum thickness from the factory on a 1979 boat.  They took some time to fair the keel.  The boat was much more symmetrical than others I had been on.  It was also dead on minimum weight with no correctors.   Although I eventually pulled the verm, it never got soft around the keelbolts.  Don Trask was the builder of those boats and he was very proud of them.  He told me once that they were selling a lot of boats to San Fran so he wanted to make sure they would hold up.    

I'm assuming they hold up better than TPI boats as well? PS boats always seem to sell a bit higher than TPI boats of the same year.