J/45

[fcfc]

But if both Arcona and X-yachts can sell 50+ yachts each of a model like this in a few years

It took more than 8 years for X-yachts to sell 100 xp-44. (with near half of factory price tag compared to J/45).

X-Yachts - Xp 44 Hull No. #100 has left the first stage of... | Facebook

I doubt Arcona has same sales figures.

The successful series of X is the X4. But it is much more of a cruiser than a racer. Perhaps that's why the J/45 is so heavy, and does not have a retractable sprit.

 

[Blur]

It took more than 8 years for X-yachts to sell 100 xp-44. (with near half of factory price tag compared to J/45).

X-Yachts - Xp 44 Hull No. #100 has left the first stage of... | Facebook

I doubt Arcona has same sales figures.

The successful series of X is the X4. But it is much more of a cruiser than a racer. Perhaps that's why the J/45 is so heavy, and does not have a retractable sprit.

My point exactly. I think they sold 75 yachts in the first 2 years of the X4 series. And now >50 of X4⁶.

 

[Hadlock]

Is there an option for a retractable bow sprit, or has that era passed now

 

[ryley]

Is this the same J that Bob Perry recently called "nice, but boring?"

 

[Crash]

Is this the same J that Bob Perry recently called "nice, but boring?"

Hey Ryley,

This is the most recent J review in Sailing that Bob has done (that I can find on the Sailing Mag website).  Don't see the words "nice, but boring" here , and pretty sure you wouldn't confuse the J/99 for a J/45, so I guess there could be a newer review that I've missed.  I get the Mag, and last one had reviews of big cruising cats...

Crash

 

[egon]

DQOTD, why did they drop the decimeter model name? Cruiser (feet) vs racer/cruiser (decimeter)?

Decimeter = Sprit & Asym

Feet = Pole & Symmetrical kite

Shush about the J/100 and J/99.

 

[Snowden]

Is there an option for a retractable bow sprit, or has that era passed now

I think the combination of (i) proliferation of code sails needing bobstay and more luff tension, (ii) RRS changes negating the OCS advantage of a retracting sprit and (iii) wanting to combine an anchor with a plumb stem means that they don't need to come back? You can still unbolt most of them to save on marina fees.

That's before you even start talking about leaks

 

[apophenia]

J/Boats did their homework on this one, and they have the dealer network to support the owners that buy it. They are upping their game with the design, the construction (no balsa coring, anywhere) and the finish. I can't wait to see the first boats hit the water this summer. 

Solid construction is an interesting design decision. Is this the first J without balsa? If so, that suggests that soggy core is a customer satisfaction issue even for their cruising customers, not just the racers who like to monkey around with gear placement.

Solid construction also suggests that putting on an articulating sprit should be easy, for those not satisfied with the stubby little sprit.

 

[Crash]

No sure you can conclude solid core (i.e. no core) from the words no balsa coring, anywhere.  It may mean they've gone from balsa to a foam core...

 

[apophenia]

No sure you can conclude solid core (i.e. no core) from the words no balsa coring, anywhere.  It may mean they've gone from balsa to a foam core...

It's a weak conclusion, but my guess is that the deck flexes due to crew climbing and lounging around, loading and unloading provisions and gear, strapping extra water and fuel to the deck, etc. creates stress somewhere in the balsa-glass interface (I'd guess it would be worst at solid-core transitions) that leads to leaks. Otherwise, I'd expect soggy core to mostly impact racers.

Either way, the move away from balsa to solid glass or foam core seems like a big win for the longevity of these boats. It is interesting that it took so long, and that this is the boat they choose to do it with.

 

[IMR]

J boat has made a boat without balsa before. They only made 16 and they were carbon, Kevlar and foam. 

 

[Crash]

It's a weak conclusion, but my guess is that the deck flexes due to crew climbing and lounging around, loading and unloading provisions and gear, strapping extra water and fuel to the deck, etc. creates stress somewhere in the balsa-glass interface (I'd guess it would be worst at solid-core transitions) that leads to leaks. Otherwise, I'd expect soggy core to mostly impact racers.

Either way, the move away from balsa to solid glass or foam core seems like a big win for the longevity of these boats. It is interesting that it took so long, and that this is the boat they choose to do it with.

So not to be too argumentative in the days leading up to Christmas, and the Holiday Season...Happy Holidays, by the way!

Have you ever repaired a soft spot on a balsa cored deck?  Almost invariably, the cause of the water intrusion can be traced back to a thru-deck penetration where the core was not isolated from the penetration.  Shrouds, lifeline stantions, winch bases, hatches, poorly run speaker or instrument wires, etc, etc.  When I recored most of the cabintop and fore deck of my S2 9.1, every leak and wet area could be traced back.  This isn't a problem that was unique to J/Boats.  S2's, Pearson Flyers, Tartan 10s, etc, etc all suffered in the late 70s and 80s from failing to isolate the core in the areas where there were thru deck penetrations.

Yes, there is a case to be made for highly loaded equipment, winches, halyard turning blocks, etc, flexing the deck, which leads to cracks, which leads to wet core...but IF the designer thought the structure sufficent for the load, both a cored, or solid deck would crack...foam would crack as well.  You can still have water intrusion and delaminated areas with foam.  Sure the foam doesnt' rot like balsa will eventually do, but there can still be water in the core.  Solid glass is heavy and not nearly as stiff as a cored laminate, so requires stringers, and bracing or thicker (heavier) layups to resist flexing.  All boat construction is a compromise.  There is no one right answer, and there certainly isn't one right answer that is inexpensive, and easy to produce that lasts forever...

But....that's just my humble opinion.  Again, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

 

[apophenia]

So not to be too argumentative in the days leading up to Christmas, and the Holiday Season...Happy Holidays, by the way!

This discussion feels informative rather than argumentative, please continue to discuss!

Have you ever repaired a soft spot on a balsa cored deck?  Almost invariably, the cause of the water intrusion can be traced back to a thru-deck penetration where the core was not isolated from the penetration.  Shrouds, lifeline stantions, winch bases, hatches, poorly run speaker or instrument wires, etc, etc.  When I recored most of the cabintop and fore deck of my S2 9.1, every leak and wet area could be traced back.  This isn't a problem that was unique to J/Boats.  S2's, Pearson Flyers, Tartan 10s, etc, etc all suffered in the late 70s and 80s from failing to isolate the core in the areas where there were thru deck penetrations.

My plague-project has been restoring an '84 Olson 25. The first O25 I looked at had a foredeck that felt like it belonged on a Hobie Cat - the pulpit support pads are too small and easily puncture the foredeck in a collision. And these boats were and are raced aggressively on the SF Bay, so plenty of collisions in their history. My own boat had a number of different adhesives and sealants jammed into the damaged area under the pulpit supports. I took everything except the winches and mast off, inspected the balsa in every hole and found dry blonde wood. I then filled the holes with penetrating epoxy before drilling them out again and refitting all the deck hardware. Perhaps unnecessary, but this O25 should have another good 35 years racing on the bay if future owners take good care.

Before buying the O25, I had briefly considered a J/105 with significant soggy core issues. I can't tell you how lucky I am that I passed on that mess.

My boat significantly exceeded hull speed on the first day out, under dacron main & 95% jib. While I may have overdone the desk restoration, the performance of the boat made it absolutely worth it for me and future owners.

Yes, there is a case to be made for highly loaded equipment, winches, halyard turning blocks, etc, flexing the deck, which leads to cracks, which leads to wet core...but IF the designer thought the structure sufficent for the load, both a cored, or solid deck would crack...foam would crack as well.  You can still have water intrusion and delaminated areas with foam.  Sure the foam doesnt' rot like balsa will eventually do, but there can still be water in the core.  Solid glass is heavy and not nearly as stiff as a cored laminate, so requires stringers, and bracing or thicker (heavier) layups to resist flexing.  All boat construction is a compromise.  There is no one right answer, and there certainly isn't one right answer that is inexpensive, and easy to produce that lasts forever...

But....that's just my humble opinion.  Again, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!

Foam cores seem like a nice improvement given the chronic issues that J/Boats seem to have with soggy balsa, but I'm surprised that they weren't able to improve their balsa process over all this time. I don't know if I'll be in the market for a J/45 or something more like a JPK when I'm ready to move on from the Olson. That may depend on how many years this plague remains active.

I hope you have a happy, safe, and healthy winter holiday as well!

 

[JL92S]

I hope J Boats sell a few J45s because whilst at times I find them frustrating, they contribute to the white blob of boats you get out sailing at the weekends

 

[us7070]

it could make a new OD class...

 

[TwoLegged]

As others have noted, this J/45 doesn't seem to add much to what's already out there.  It seems very similar to the X4-6: slightly lighter, slightly beamier, but not much in it.  And also very similar to the Arcona 465, which being carbon is about 10%5 lighter than the J.  The Solaris 44 is also similar, and about 5% lighter than the J.

The main design difference I can see is that the Solaris, X and Arcona carry more of their beam aft.

Most Js are reasonably well differentiated from other offerings, but this feels like a copycat design. 

J/boats is a very effective marketing organisation, which has a knack of finding an unfilled niche where there are customers waiting, and meeting that need.  But in this case, it seems to be just looking for a slice of an already crowded market, which implies reduced profitability.

The others all have a higher reputation for quality, so the J/45 is going to have to compete on price ... which is not a familiar situation for J/boats.

So where's the gap?  My best guess so far is that the target is American customers for this sort of boat, where the J brand is much more dominant than in Europe, and J has a huge dealer network and a reputation for holding value.  That may allow the boat to be sold at high enough profit margins.

 

[Roleur]

As others have noted, this J/45 doesn't seem to add much to what's already out there.  It seems very similar to the X4-6: slightly lighter, slightly beamier, but not much in it.  And also very similar to the Arcona 465, which being carbon is about 10%5 lighter than the J.  The Solaris 44 is also similar, and about 5% lighter than the J.

The main design difference I can see is that the Solaris, X and Arcona carry more of their beam aft.

Most Js are reasonably well differentiated from other offerings, but this feels like a copycat design. 

J/boats is a very effective marketing organisation, which has a knack of finding an unfilled niche where there are customers waiting, and meeting that need.  But in this case, it seems to be just looking for a slice of an already crowded market, which implies reduced profitability.

The others all have a higher reputation for quality, so the J/45 is going to have to compete on price ... which is not a familiar situation for J/boats.

So where's the gap?  My best guess so far is that the target is American customers for this sort of boat, where the J brand is much more dominant than in Europe, and J has a huge dealer network and a reputation for holding value.  That may allow the boat to be sold at high enough profit margins.

To add to that.  Don't underestimate the number of American buyers looking for something in this size/price range that would much rather "Buy American" if they had the option and none of the other boats mentioned have any ties to the US.  

 

[TwoLegged]

To add to that.  Don't underestimate the number of American buyers looking for something in this size/price range that would much rather "Buy American" if they had the option and none of the other boats mentioned have any ties to the US.  

God use of scare quotes, Roleur.  If they do buy "American", they'll actually be buying French, since the boats will be made by J Composites in Les Sables-d'Olonne.

But then I guess people are used to buying American branded stuff which is actually made in China

 

[Crash]

Certainly buying a bigger J/Boat these days means having them manufactured at J Composites, who by most everyone's accounts does a better job than most of the US builders J have used...But it still means money in the pockets of J/Boats themselves in Rhode Island, so there's that component of it.  I also think there is a component of buyers, particularly in the US maybe, that don't really like the super-wide euro butt.  I know I don't.  So even though J/Boats transom's are growing wider, they are still narrower, and better looking (IMHO) than wide-assed Euro boats.  

There is nothing wrong with wide-ass Euro boats, other than the aesthetics simply doesn't work for me.

The last mid-40 J cruiser was the J-46, built from 1995-2003.  It is very likely that a number of J clientele have expressed the desire (as stated by smilingpolitely above)  to have a newer J in that size.  Not every boat designed need be targeted to the European Market, which as many have pointed out, is already well served by other makes.  But I'd guess there are as many J dealers in the US, as there are X-Yacht, Acrona, and Solaris combined.

 

[smilingpolitely]

 I also think there is a component of buyers, particularly in the US maybe, that don't really like the super-wide euro butt.  I know I don't.  So even though J/Boats transom's are growing wider, they are still narrower, and better looking (IMHO) than wide-assed Euro boats.  

Absolutely true, and it was important to J/Boats that the 45 be more moderate in both euro-butt and freeboard than the competition. It's amazing what our eyes have gotten used to from all of the mass market production cruisers out there.