J-80Pole extension rules

Gouvernail

Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
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6,290
Austin Texas
The class rule says:

 To extend the bowsprit a boat shall be in the process of either a continuous hoist,
flying or a continuous retrieval of the gennaker. At all other times the bowsprit shall
be retracted and comply with C.8.3(b)(i).
(iii) A watertight seal, tape or other material may be added around the bowsprit 

********************

Various sailors have given me different opinions about the proper application of that rule 

NO ONE has suggested the pole must be retracted while gybing of if the chute collapses. It isn’t rally “frying” at those times but reasonableness suggests “Trying to fly it” is good enough to be considered legal.

My questions pertain to the “process” of hoist or retrieval. 
 

* Can the team retrieve the sail and immediately start retracting the pole?

* must the pole be all the way in before the last bit of sail is stuffed in the cabin?

* Is pulling the tack line to the tip of the pole part of the process?

* can the pole go out as soon as the tack line is being pulled to move the tack to the end of the pole 

* is the process of the hoist limited to  only the period while the halyard is actively moving the head toward the sheave on the mast? 

* if a team fails to fully hoist the chute, noticed the head is two feet from the mast, and tgen raises the chute the rest of the way, has tgst team violated the “continuous “ requirement by sailing with its sprit extended? 
 

******
I am not asking these questions to be a rules maniac asshole. They are posed because I believe the goal of the RRS is to make it possible for any sailor to go to any sailboat venue on the planet, know the game and have fun,  

as I do not know the answers to the questions, I cannot play at full speed. 

 

Varan

Super Anarchist
6,996
2,197
Extend pole and tape the tackline near the cleat for a reference. Then when approaching the windward mark, prefeed the tack until the tape reaches its spot, holding the sail down so it doesn't try to fill. When "hoist" is called, extended the pole while it is being hoisted. Spreads the sail, so less likely to twist.

Leeward mark, blow the pole while gathering the foot, then the tack and haylard (assuming a mexican or windward takedown, not a stretch and blow)

Regarding the sail collapsing in a jibe, blowing the pole may be good if you love shrimp. Can't see a protest if don't getting very far, but you never know. Just don't go there.

 

Just A Skosh

Super Anarchist
1,389
67
New Hampshire
Gonna try that next time out… ( probably Saturday) 
If you do that, make sure that the pit or trimmer chucks the chute out of the companionway as the hoist is happening. If you don't do that, there's too much pressure on the pole-out line to get it out with the tack line cleated.

In regards to your other questions, I'm not a rules expert, but the way I interpret the rule is that as long as something is moving that is related to hoisting the sail, we are in the process. If we go pole out and then sit there for 30 seconds between the offset and windward mark, with nothing else happening, I think that's a breach of the rule. If we go pole out, tackline out, start moving sail cloth and pre-feeding the halyard, I think that's fair game.

 
The class rule says:

 To extend the bowsprit a boat shall be in the process of either a continuous hoist,
flying or a continuous retrieval of the gennaker. At all other times the bowsprit shall
be retracted and comply with C.8.3(b)(i).
(iii) A watertight seal, tape or other material may be added around the bowsprit 

********************

Various sailors have given me different opinions about the proper application of that rule 

NO ONE has suggested the pole must be retracted while gybing of if the chute collapses. It isn’t rally “frying” at those times but reasonableness suggests “Trying to fly it” is good enough to be considered legal.

My questions pertain to the “process” of hoist or retrieval. 
 

* Can the team retrieve the sail and immediately start retracting the pole? 

* must the pole be all the way in before the last bit of sail is stuffed in the cabin?

* Is pulling the tack line to the tip of the pole part of the process?

* can the pole go out as soon as the tack line is being pulled to move the tack to the end of the pole 

* is the process of the hoist limited to  only the period while the halyard is actively moving the head toward the sheave on the mast? 

* if a team fails to fully hoist the chute, noticed the head is two feet from the mast, and tgen raises the chute the rest of the way, has tgst team violated the “continuous “ requirement by sailing with its sprit extended? 
 

******
I am not asking these questions to be a rules maniac asshole. They are posed because I believe the goal of the RRS is to make it possible for any sailor to go to any sailboat venue on the planet, know the game and have fun,  

as I do not know the answers to the questions, I cannot play at full speed. 
https://www.j80na.com/uploads/3/9/8/7/3987810/rule_cr_c.8.3_bowsprit_guidance_1.pdf- This link has answers to some of your questions, I think.

The rule as I understand it was implemented to prevent people from claiming room at both windward and leeward marks with the bowsprit still out, but no legitimate reason for it to be there. I would just try to have the halyard moving up before the bowsprit moves out. The halyard has to go ~36 feet, the bowsprit only has to go about 6 feet, so giving the halyard a head start doesn't really create a problem, and ensures that the rule is complied with on the hoist. 

 

Varan

Super Anarchist
6,996
2,197
Gonna try that next time out… ( probably Saturday) 
It's all about timing. Pole out while hoisting when the sail is not yet loaded. Don't touch the sheet until the person on the pole yells "made". Let us know how it goes.

 

Kenny Dumas

Non Binary About Anything
1,406
574
PDX
Thread drift on because this seems a good audience:

The new rules use the hull rather than sails/rigging for the start/finish line. If not required by class rules to retract the sprit, or if I have a huge semi permanent sprit, it would seem I can get a leeward overlap with my sprit and luff a competitor over the line while keeping my hull safely not OCS. True?

 
Thread drift on because this seems a good audience:

The new rules use the hull rather than sails/rigging for the start/finish line. If not required by class rules to retract the sprit, or if I have a huge semi permanent sprit, it would seem I can get a leeward overlap with my sprit and luff a competitor over the line while keeping my hull safely not OCS. True?
No.

 Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap 

One boat is clear astern of another when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position. The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However, they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms always apply to boats on the same tack. They apply to boats on opposite tacks only when rule 18 applies between them or when both boats are sailing more than ninety degrees from the true wind.

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20212024Finalwithbookmarks-[27255].pdf

A retractable bowsprit extended at the start for the sole reason to gain an overlap is not likely to be considered "in normal position."

 

Kenny Dumas

Non Binary About Anything
1,406
574
PDX
Ok, let’s simplify it to a permanent sprit, like a skiff. The new rules give a new advantage to the leeward boat with more margin to luff without crossing the line, true?

 
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