J/88

bloodshot

Super Anarchist
1,542
114
United States
Ryley said:
I might be second in line...question is if they do a 30 foot version of the 111, does it need to have standing headroom (and thus is more R/C and more expensive) or do they go with 92s like cabin and no standing headroom (thus more racer..and cheaper). J/97 failed to gain traction as it was smaller/slower than a J/109, but as or more expensive than a couple year old 109. If they can bring it in under 6 figures they might have a winner, but that might be pretty tough to do...

I'd think if they tried to do a conventional pole boat (a la a J/29) today, it'd flop...and I wouldn't consider it. I want to reduce the number of crew I need to go racing. I could race my 109 with less crew (and less experienced crew) then I need on my 9.1...
I do not understand the move towards strictly asyms in the new race boats, you add one more person on a sym vs asym boat.
it's not the quantity, it's the quality. *That* can be the deal breaker. Besides, with the newer designs an asym isn't the handicap on a w/l it once was. Not to mention that you don't see too many deathrolls in asym boats - they just don't sail those kinds of angles, so the boats are relatively safer in a lot of ways.
Yep, its the quality (experience level) of the crew you need. You can "get away" with a less experienced crew (newer folks, family, etc) and suffer less crew related errors/issues and still get around the course successfully. Of course, a talented crew will still show...But it is ironic that I need more folks, and more experienced folks at that to race my current 30 footer, than I needed to race my previous J/109 to be equally effective (bottom of upper third of class to mid-pack in local phrf racing...)
yeah, we had 7 people on a J/120 this past weekend (only 5 of whom have ever been really on the boat), and we mostly held our own. Put that size crew on a J/35 and we would have been toast.

 

bloodshot

Super Anarchist
1,542
114
United States
yeah, its low. like 16+ hulls sold or so. looks like a sweet boat though.

thanks for this thread. I'm having an awesome time spending other people's money. ;)

 
Get an FT10 until they build what you're looking for. Not very cruisy but a great daysailor and certainly quick around the cans. We had a blast at the recent Verve Cup with a 6 boat fleet. I agree that the Andrews 28 looks great but it certainly won't offer any 1 design probability anytime soon.

 

jim lee

Anarchist
So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

-jim lee

 
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Crash

Super Anarchist
4,984
945
SoCal
So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

-jim lee
That's always the challenge isn't it. Last boats in the US might be the Bene 36.7 and J/109. But even now the 109 is at best a regional OD. Meaning there are a half dozen or so active OD fleets and they get from 10 to maybe 20 at a national championship. But they never managed on OD event on the Ches Bay in the 4 years I raced mine..(2003-2006). I'd say you need to get to 300 or so hulls to have a reasonably robust OD class (nationwide). But if you can get a half dozen or so at your YC, etc as early adopters, you can at least race OD locally....The reality is it takes a couple years to build to a robust OD class, and the guys buying in the first couple years are playing the odds. So you have to decide you like the boat as a handicap racer to buy early....

 
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MidPack

Super Anarchist
3,645
84
undecided
So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

-jim lee
Actually I'm more interested in critical mass for resale than OD racing. That would be nice but like you say, not sure when it will happen again - though the J/70 may have a shot with 200 orders reported(?).

 
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jim lee

Anarchist
So, you want a new design but it must have critical mass? Is this because you want to race one design? And, how much is critical mass?

When has the last new design of around this size hit critical mass? What boat was that?

( Notice I said "of around this size" keeps the V-Boat-Boys a bay. )

-jim lee
Actually I'm more interested in critical mass for resale than OD racing. That would be nice but like you say, not sure when it will happen again - though the J/70 may have a shot with 200 orders reported(?).
Well the J/70 is too small and who knows if it will get critical mass or not. You want larger, critical mass and room for a portable head. What's wrong with the J/80?

-jim lee

 

valcour

Member
378
90
Only four Andrews 28s were built, despite being awesome boats by all accounts. Lots of factors: price, timing, marketing, etc. I'd love one, but at $100k for a used one, it's still too pricey.

I've considered the j/92, but agree it needs updating. A 30 foot version of a J/111 would be nice. Something with a high ballast/displacement ratio to avoid needing a ton of crew. As mentioned before, a J/90 with a head and a slight interior...

 

sailman

Super Anarchist
8,290
416
Portsmouth, RI
Only four Andrews 28s were built, despite being awesome boats by all accounts. Lots of factors: price, timing, marketing, etc. I'd love one, but at $100k for a used one, it's still too pricey.

I've considered the j/92, but agree it needs updating. A 30 foot version of a J/111 would be nice. Something with a high ballast/displacement ratio to avoid needing a ton of crew. As mentioned before, a J/90 with a head and a slight interior...
What exactly are you looking for in a ~30 footer for under 100k? Get youself back into reality. The J92 is a great all around boat it rates 108-114 because it has been sailed poorly, there are not a whole bunch of them out there. Johnstone has stated he believes the boat should rate in the mid-90's, all the polars and VPP back that up. For a 30 footer that is easy to handle, a great light and heavy air performer, I ask again WTF are you after? Do you want a twitchy 30 footer like a Mumm or Melges?

 

BobJ

Super Anarchist
1,206
150
How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.

 

hart

Member
366
0
How would you update a J/92? (Bias warning - I've owned and raced one for nine years.)

It's pre-scrimp so the only way to lighten it up is to carbonize it, but the J/92S with conventional construction cost close to $150,000 and you don't want to pay that much. I suppose you could get rid of the inboard but a lot of people want that in a 30 footer.

Update the foils? They did that in the 92S. Non-overlappers and masthead kite? Ditto.

You guys want a 3,500# 30 footer that rates like a J/105 and costs less than $100,000. Good luck w/that.

You can buy my J/92 from my estate. The boat is damn near perfect.
need to get it to around 1500kgs, so maybe remove some of the interior (and weight) in favour of a sail locker you could shelter in.....low freeboard and no protruding coach roof......maybe a hatch under cockpit floor for an outboard, so no inboard....a taller carbon rig.....a thinner deeper lighter keel (maybe lifting?).......taller sail plan with even bigger kite than 92S (SA/D 0f 29/30)......a bang up to date hull shape for less wetted surface area, maximised WL and more planing potential, with a DLR of 110 or less.

Have I just described a Melges 32 or Soto 30?

will it be versatile enough and sufficiently family friendly for J boats?

 

Crash

Super Anarchist
4,984
945
SoCal
Only four Andrews 28s were built, despite being awesome boats by all accounts. Lots of factors: price, timing, marketing, etc. I'd love one, but at $100k for a used one, it's still too pricey.

I've considered the j/92, but agree it needs updating. A 30 foot version of a J/111 would be nice. Something with a high ballast/displacement ratio to avoid needing a ton of crew. As mentioned before, a J/90 with a head and a slight interior...
What exactly are you looking for in a ~30 footer for under 100k? Get youself back into reality. The J92 is a great all around boat it rates 108-114 because it has been sailed poorly, there are not a whole bunch of them out there. Johnstone has stated he believes the boat should rate in the mid-90's, all the polars and VPP back that up. For a 30 footer that is easy to handle, a great light and heavy air performer, I ask again WTF are you after? Do you want a twitchy 30 footer like a Mumm or Melges?
Concur the 92 is a great boat. But for whatever reason, neither it, nor the 92s achieved critical mass to really have an OD class form. I've been pushing a friend towards the 92s for some time...having said that, if you had a boat that was 30 or less, with a retractable keel to make trailering easy, and an outboard a la most J-29s because it makes the boat easier to trailer , it makes it lighter, and it is cheaper than an inboard, would that maybe be the formula? I don't know, just asking if that might be the critical difference...

 

MidPack

Super Anarchist
3,645
84
undecided
So you need to take a demo ride on a J/70.

You might like it.
Well the J/70 is too small and who knows if it will get critical mass or not. You want larger, critical mass and room for a portable head. What's wrong with the J/80?
I'm thinking about doing a demo sail and I know I'd like the J/70 (loved our J/80), but the warden won't agree to a bucket (or a porta-potti) again and she's been a good sport re: sailing for over 20 years, so there's no way I can buy one...no marine head is a show stopper for her.

Who knows I may end up with a J/92-92s or nothing. I have to believe J/Boats will come out with a faster 29-30 footer, then it will come down to what price point...

 
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Snarley

Kent H ...been here way too long..
3,319
121
US
The poster to talk to is U20 Guy. I really think he has the right idea and I am seeing it copied in the south east.

Buy a nice used cruising sailboat or powerboat that the previous owner has recently put a ton or at least a good deal of work/money into it. ( Get the work for pennies on the dollar)

Then go buy that nice one design daysailor / racer that you can own for a very long time. It is dirt cheap to keep, store and sail.

Don't compromise.

Check out a combination of a Grand Banks 32 and IF the J70 is going to be one design in your area buy it.

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=1781349&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=12544&url=

 

MidPack

Super Anarchist
3,645
84
undecided
WOWZA. If I wanted to pay for two slips, two winter haulout and storage, two insurance etc. - I'd rather just buy a J/111. I got out of boating due to the operating costs mostly (it was crazy IMO), I'm not as concerned with the boat purchase price. I can get a chunk of that back, the operating costs are gone forever. And the sporty still wouldn't have a head for the warden, doesn't help to have one on the "other boat." YMMV

 
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JSoup

Anarchist
674
7
Portland, OR
MidPack - Being a J/boat guy, I'm sure you've considered this, but other than the extra 4.5' you don't want, it seems the J/105 ticks all the boxes. Not exactly cheap to buy, but operating costs can be pretty reasonable for that size boat. Standing headroom is the only recurring annoyance, but we knew that going in. We've been able to buy very inexpensive used sails for ocean racing and even some used class sails as we work on building our one-design inventory. Despite the Anarchy disdain for the boat (or anything successful...), we are impressed with the boat in many ways. We love our 105

Is it the extra length or something else keeping you away from the 105?

 
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