J109 Vs J112e Vs J111

[Movable Ballast]

Obviously the J111 is the cat in the bird house being a different beast, much more racer than cruiser but what about the J112e Vs J109. The SA/Disp, Disp/LWL seem to be pretty similar. The 109 is getting a bit long in the tooth (last made in 2008?) but there are more around these days at more reasonable prices. The 112e is twice the price at a minimum and $450k for a new one. The layouts are also similar (2 cabin). Is there that much difference between them? Is the build quality that J boats is know for evident in the 112e?

 

[Crash]

Can’t talk about build quality of the 112e from first hand experience, but both owners of 209s and 105s have pretty consistently said build quality of the French built boats were better than the US ones. My 109 was a 2004, and of above “average” build quality, but it had its build issues that needed addressing, and a 16-19 year old boat will likely need some love put back into it. That said, I don’t like the more modern “euro” interior look on the 112e, and much prefer the 109s more traditional interior, enough so that given the difference in cost, I’d go buy the best 109 I could find.

You didn’t say anything about how you plan to use the boat. Mostly race? Cruise occasionally? Still in San Diego? Long summer trip down Ensenada? Or just local stuff?

Personally I think how you’d use it, and where you fall on interiors are the two bigger factors in picking between the 3…

If it’s what’s the fastest best boat to race? 111 hands down

If you want racer/cruiser and like traditional interiors, it’s the 109

If you have the cash, and like the modern look, it’s the 112e

 

[steele]

I don’t have much to add to Crash’s post other than to point out 109s were made until 2012 so you might still find one in reasonable condition. I think my French built 109 is above average build quality and seems to be holding up well, but nothing like my 40 year old Tartan.

 

[Blur]

+1 on @Crash's comment.

Having owned both the J/109 and the J/111, and done the homework on the J/112e (actually haven't sailed one) my thoughts are;

J/109 - absolutely most bang for the buck and a fantastic all-around racer/cruiser. Sure, many/most boats have been sailed hard, but I've seen some fantastic refits. Still works very well on the race course, especially w/l. Miss mine sometimes (so much better to live on board than the J/111).

J/112e - if you can handle the price, and want the luxury of buying a new boat, the J/112e is a natural choice. I would argue that it's a better boat in all areas. Especially the hull shape makes it a much better boat on a tight reach and downwind in heavy air. With the J/109 it's a wild ride, but my understanding is that the J/112 can be pushed much harder,m and is fun on a downwind in 20+ knots.

I did a comparison between a J/112e and a J/109 below (both boats are on the faster side of the spectrum). Something is off with the VMG downwind in above 14 knots where the J/112e should be 4-6% faster.

Interior is a matter of taste. The J/112e should be bigger down below and I like the new styling. The European market is quite picky when it comes to the interior (both styling and quality), and I think J/composites in France understand this.

Qualitywise I'd think that newer boats are slightly better due to experience/updates. And while J/boats might seem expensive, it's a consequence of not choosing the lower price / lower quality route of many other European builders.

 

[Slim]

J 45!?

 

[Movable Ballast]

Can’t talk about build quality of the 112e from first hand experience, but both owners of 209s and 105s have pretty consistently said build quality of the French built boats were better than the US ones. My 109 was a 2004, and of above “average” build quality, but it had its build issues that needed addressing, and a 16-19 year old boat will likely need some love put back into it. That said, I don’t like the more modern “euro” interior look on the 112e, and much prefer the 109s more traditional interior, enough so that given the difference in cost, I’d go buy the best 109 I could find.

You didn’t say anything about how you plan to use the boat. Mostly race? Cruise occasionally? Still in San Diego? Long summer trip down Ensenada? Or just local stuff?

Personally I think how you’d use it, and where you fall on interiors are the two bigger factors in picking between the 3…

If it’s what’s the fastest best boat to race? 111 hands down

If you want racer/cruiser and like traditional interiors, it’s the 109

If you have the cash, and like the modern look, it’s the 112e

Thanks all, still in San Diego area (North County) Looking to replace my turbo'd Schock 35 with something more cruising oriented but still fast. Getting close to retirement and want to get me and the wife out for more excursions but still race as well. I have to agree with her that there is not a single comfortable place to be on a Schock 35, inside or out. The price point to a 112e is quite the jump and wondering if it's worth it. 400 big bones is a lot of scratch. The only PHRF rating on the 112e I could find is 54 W/L and she appears to have longer legs than the 109 but can a 35ft furniture boat really sail to 54? The 109 rating is locked in and solid so everyone knows if you can't win the occasional pickle dish it ain't the boat!

Thanks Blur for your input I've watched many of your vids. You know how to push the limit on these boats!

 

[Roleur]

J/120. Best cruiser by far compared to the other 3. Faster than the 112e and 109. Lowest cost. 200 built. Find a good one and spend a few bucks making it perfect for your needs. If you want newer then a J/122. A fraction of the J/112e cost, much faster, and great cruiser. J/122 doesn't have overlapping headsails, which is a real downside for the J/109 and J/120.

 

[Roleur]

Also, a J/111 with a fridge, water heater, pressure water, and an oven makes a fine cruiser. There is plenty of space and the v-berth is quite roomy. Only real downside is the head is in the v-berth and no shower. Super fun boat to sail and sail you will, because the J/111 is wicked in light air. We've really enjoyed both our J/120 and J/111 for racing. We loved cruising on the J/120, but found we rarely did it anymore, so got the J/111 because we are only racing now. Still love the J/120 for a true racer/cruiser or cruiser/racer.

 

[psycho tiller]

We looked into a J/111 as a replacement for our J/109 a few years ago. I was super excited about the J/111 but my handler put the hard breaks on that for a couple reasons. These same issues may or may not be important to the OP?

1) The aft berth is a really tight squeeze for two people. You can sleep in the v berth but she didn't like the head being up there which typically has that certain unmistakable fragrance associated with it. Also, using the v-berth would likely require moving sails in and out. None of those are a big deal if overnights are only occasional but since we spend quite a few nights in the slip it was a hard sell to her. And believe me, I tried to sell her on it as much as I could but it was a definitive hard no.

2) She also didn't like the lack of privacy in the berths for changing, etc. I didn't care about the privacy issue but understandably since she's often the only female on a crew of 5 stinky guys it was more important to her.

The good news is the issues she had with the J111 opened up the piggy bank for a more expensive boat. "Well, if you want privacy AND a large aft berth AND a boat that planes it's going to cost more!"
I'll never openly admit it to her, but in retrospect and for our needs she was right. For the right person and use the J/111 is a fantastic boat though, no question.

As far as the J/109, it was a great boat too and a very comfortable cruiser that still sails quite well. We moved to another boat because we wanted something that planes and is little better for heavy winds. Besides that no specific complaints about the 109, super fun boat.

 

[bloodshot]

J120 now up for sale on the east coast. check out YachtWorld

 

[Firebar]

J/122 doesn't have overlapping headsails, which is a real downside for the J/109 and J/120.

The J/109s in the UK, and all the J/120s I see out regularly have all moved to exclusively 105% headsails. Might take them out of class in the US but if only racing handicap could work.

Here’s a Cowes Week start for the 109s in about 15 kts TWS. All pretty happily powered up.

 

[starsinker]

I got a J109 in January and am very happy with it. I was weighing the J111 as well. In the end I chose the 109 because I liked the layout better for cruising and because there were more around locally to race against. It’s been a great boat to race and cruise. Good all around performance, a little bit stodgy downwind in breeze.

 

[Jambalaya]

What do you want the boat for ?

I had a 109 absolutely hated it and like quite a few others (10+ ?) had a defective keel. Half a seasons racing effectively cost me £60,000 and a world of pain. Have never bought another keel boat since (previously owned J92/105 SB3/Melges24)

The 109 is a cruisey water pusher vs much nicer sportier sailing boats like 111 or 112e (or 92/99/105/120/122 ... I lose track)

The best argument for 109 is they are pretty cheap now, UK one design has gone 105% jib (something they refused to do when I owned mine) and under IRC they are very competitive. They are upwind weapons in light/medium air. They do not reach well (fall over). For a competitive racer they offer decent cruising.

Running a 111/112 will cost a whole lot more upfront/ongoing

 

[danstanford]

What do you want the boat for ?

I had a 109 absolutely hated it and like quite a few others (10+ ?) had a defective keel. Half a seasons racing effectively cost me £60,000 and a world of pain. Have never bought another keel boat since (previously owned J92/105 SB3/Melges24)

The 109 is a cruisey water pusher vs much nicer sportier sailing boats like 111 or 112e (or 92/99/105/120/122 ... I lose track)

The best argument for 109 is they are pretty cheap now, UK one design has gone 105% jib (something they refused to do when I owned mine) and under IRC they are very competitive. They are upwind weapons in light/medium air. They do not reach well (fall over). For a competitive racer they offer decent cruising.

Running a 111/112 will cost a whole lot more upfront/ongoing

Why do you say ongoing?

 

[Movable Ballast]

We have looked at the J120. There are a few around that are reasonably priced but absolutely fanged. plus I never want checkstays in my life again! All great point from everyone, great input.

 

[bloodshot]

We have looked at the J120. There are a few around that are reasonably priced but absolutely fanged. plus I never want checkstays in my life again! All great point from everyone, great input.

I know of an owner who asked Rod Johnstone about the checkstays and he said that they really aren't even necessary. No idea if the top OD boats use them or not.

 

[dreamingwet]

We have looked at the J120. There are a few around that are reasonably priced but absolutely fanged. plus I never want checkstays in my life again! All great point from everyone, great input.

Which one you looked at? I am looking for a 120 or 125.

 

[Roleur]

We had our J/120 for 8 years. Trans-Atlantic, Pacific Cup, Van Isle 360, plus a number of good results locally in distance races (Swiftsure, Round the County, Southern Straits, etc). Never once used the checkstays.

 

[dreamingwet]

We had our J/120 for 8 years. Trans-Atlantic, Pacific Cup, Van Isle 360, plus a number of good results locally in distance races (Swiftsure, Round the County, Southern Straits, etc). Never once used the checkstays.

Roleur, do you know anything about the one for sale in CA? If I went to look at it what should I be looking for and how easy do they go into plane or don't?

 

[Roleur]

i don't know anything about those boats specifically, but I would pass on a 1994 model (first year) in favor of the 1999 that is also for sale in CA. With a 94 you'd have to find out the history with the keel sump. No such issues with a 1999 model.

J/120' will plane, but not in flat water. There are plenty of reports of them hitting 20 knots, but that is big breeze, big kite, and big waves. Big rudder though, so super easy boat to control. The J/120 is just about the perfect boat to race in the PNW (perhaps the J/111 is one boat that is better! No accident, that.). They have won literally every race in the region, including all of the local, coastal/offshore races. When we sold our boat, the new owners bought it to cruise, but they still raced Round the County and won their division (one of the most competitive races we have in the PNW). On the plus side we could carry a full size A2 in 35 knots. On the downside we were only going 15 knots.

Unfortunately, from reading what you are interested in, the J/120's biggest weakness is downwind in big breeze. It has a hard time sailing to its rating, because it is really good upwind in all conditions and downwind in light/medium, but can't sail to that rating in breeze downwind easily. They are still really competitive in the Newport to Bermuda race, which is more reaching, where they excel. Around here where we go upwind, downwind, and reaching, the boat is money. Great cruising boat too. Needs nothing there. When we were racing and getting good results we had a diesel heater, fridge, shower, dodger, roller furling, and an autopilot. Super stiff upwind boat for cruising though. Full main into the high 20's wind speed.