J109 Vs J112e Vs J111

[GHarring19]

So I have a 112E (upgraded from a 99 last year) and I spend a lot of time on course with 109s and 111s. From what I have seen - a well sailed 111 is very hard to beat on correction, mainly because in medium to light air they get up and go a little faster. Once the breeze gets about 12-15 we start to even out pretty quickly. Same thing with the 109 - they are slippery in light so we can beat them, but we are a 57 and they are a 75-76 so that 18-19 seconds is a challenge in light air on a shorter course (4 -6 miles). My view on the 112 is an amazing boat, super fun to sail, but the extra weight makes it tough until its breeze on. Right at the 12-15 area we start going upwind at 7 knots and we are very competitive. Downwind we seem to match speed in bigger breeze with the 111, unless they start planing. But Im going crusing in my 112 with my wife in two weeks, and I would MUCH rather do that in a 112 than a 111 or a 109!

 

[MPongs]

So I have a 112E (upgraded from a 99 last year) and I spend a lot of time on course with 109s and 111s. From what I have seen - a well sailed 111 is very hard to beat on correction, mainly because in medium to light air they get up and go a little faster. Once the breeze gets about 12-15 we start to even out pretty quickly. Same thing with the 109 - they are slippery in light so we can beat them, but we are a 57 and they are a 75-76 so that 18-19 seconds is a challenge in light air on a shorter course (4 -6 miles). My view on the 112 is an amazing boat, super fun to sail, but the extra weight makes it tough until its breeze on. Right at the 12-15 area we start going upwind at 7 knots and we are very competitive. Downwind we seem to match speed in bigger breeze with the 111, unless they start planing. But Im going crusing in my 112 with my wife in two weeks, and I would MUCH rather do that in a 112 than a 111 or a 109!

@GHarring19 , what made you decide to switch from a 99 to a 112e? was it the interior?

I'm currently torn between a 99 and 112(not ready to pull trigger yet but just planning for future), because while I love the 99, I realized that my boat is used 50% for racing, 50% for entertaining and something like the 112e, more cruisy might be better. I was hoping the 99 could pull off the social aspect of it but not so sure.

I do love the ergonomics of the j99 from the sailing perspective though because of the tiller and mainsheet system.

 

[Crash]

So I have a 112E (upgraded from a 99 last year) and I spend a lot of time on course with 109s and 111s. From what I have seen - a well sailed 111 is very hard to beat on correction, mainly because in medium to light air they get up and go a little faster. Once the breeze gets about 12-15 we start to even out pretty quickly. Same thing with the 109 - they are slippery in light so we can beat them, but we are a 57 and they are a 75-76 so that 18-19 seconds is a challenge in light air on a shorter course (4 -6 miles). My view on the 112 is an amazing boat, super fun to sail, but the extra weight makes it tough until its breeze on. Right at the 12-15 area we start going upwind at 7 knots and we are very competitive. Downwind we seem to match speed in bigger breeze with the 111, unless they start planing. But Im going crusing in my 112 with my wife in two weeks, and I would MUCH rather do that in a 112 than a 111 or a 109!

Why would you "MUCH" rather cruise a 112 over a 109? 109 has mostly the same layout, and my wife and 3 kids cruised ours very comfortably...hope to get on the 112e at Annapolis this year, and I see the layout is pushed farther aft in the 112 compared to the 109, meaning the v berth is less of a v at the point. But otherwise???

Do the 109's you race sail in the OD config (75 rating seems to imply that) or PHRF config? When I had mine in the early days of 109 racing when there was no OD on the Chesapeake Bay, I raced PHRF (155 & 120sqm chute), but was considering a switch to OD config as the cross over point was around 8 kts as I recall...

I wonder if the more common usage of Codes and Jib tops have helped address the 109's challenges when reaching?

 

[bloodshot]

a local J109 near us used to clean up in PHRF with a roachier main and genoa.

 

[F18 Sailor]

i don't know anything about those boats specifically, but I would pass on a 1994 model (first year) in favor of the 1999 that is also for sale in CA. With a 94 you'd have to find out the history with the keel sump. No such issues with a 1999 model.

J/120' will plane, but not in flat water. There are plenty of reports of them hitting 20 knots, but that is big breeze, big kite, and big waves. Big rudder though, so super easy boat to control. The J/120 is just about the perfect boat to race in the PNW (perhaps the J/111 is one boat that is better! No accident, that.). They have won literally every race in the region, including all of the local, coastal/offshore races. When we sold our boat, the new owners bought it to cruise, but they still raced Round the County and won their division (one of the most competitive races we have in the PNW). On the plus side we could carry a full size A2 in 35 knots. On the downside we were only going 15 knots.

Unfortunately, from reading what you are interested in, the J/120's biggest weakness is downwind in big breeze. It has a hard time sailing to its rating, because it is really good upwind in all conditions and downwind in light/medium, but can't sail to that rating in breeze downwind easily. They are still really competitive in the Newport to Bermuda race, which is more reaching, where they excel. Around here where we go upwind, downwind, and reaching, the boat is money. Great cruising boat too. Needs nothing there. When we were racing and getting good results we had a diesel heater, fridge, shower, dodger, roller furling, and an autopilot. Super stiff upwind boat for cruising though. Full main into the high 20's wind speed.

All accurate, save the downwind bit. A J/122 was 1st in class and 2nd overall in the Newport to Bermuda race this past year, which was basically downwind running in everything from 5 to 30kts of breeze. I don't think the 120 and 122 are much different on this point of sail; the 122 in question sailed a better course out of the gate, and likely had the best trimmers and drivers of the bunch (we were behind on a 120, and struggled to sail as deep). I say that depth is the key; it is less about max boat speed on this point of sail and being able to get low. Modern A2's are very good at soaking low, but wave state makes it a challenge to ever really get to the boats target polar angle for very long, and to do it you need a really competent team of trimmers and drivers.

Overall I have to say the 120's remain as great bang for the buck and the later batches are pretty stiff/well built. The downside I would say is ongoing running cost. It is probably 10-15% cheaper to run a 109 or 112e per year than the 120. The 111 is interesting; non-overlapping headsails help with cost, but you are also pretty much forced to spec grand prix running rigging and supplement the headsail inventory with a code zero for distance racing. I think the 120/109 only needs a code if you are reaching in under 8-10kts of breeze, and if that is a maybe.

 

[Jambalaya]

Why do you say ongoing?

Annual costs sails etc

 

[Crash]

Annual costs sails etc

Huh? In this case, same sized boats with roughly same sized sails. To run equal programs should cost roughly the same, right? Unless you're saying J/109 in an OD config vs. J/111 or J/112 in an IRC config. Then, yeah, maybe your right?

But I'm happy to be shown why I'm wrong too...

 

[Black Dog]

What is the story on this one? Owner has never stepped aboard?

2022 J Boats J/112E Racer/Cruiser for sale - YachtWorld

Find more information and images about the boat and contact the seller or search more boats for sale on YachtWorld.

www.yachtworld.com

 

[Jambalaya]

Huh? In this case, same sized boats with roughly same sized sails. To run equal programs should cost roughly the same, right? Unless you're saying J/109 in an OD config vs. J/111 or J/112 in an IRC config. Then, yeah, maybe your right?

But I'm happy to be shown why I'm wrong too...

109 sails are quite a bit smaller/cheaper than J111

 

[Black Dog]

Unfortunately, from reading what you are interested in, the J/120's biggest weakness is downwind in big breeze.

I respectfully disagree with you 100%. I actively campaigned one for over 10 years in venue known for consistently high breezes.
We did extremely well with it especially in heavy air. You need the right 165m spinnaker and the gonads to fly it.

 

[Roleur]

Says the guy who called a J/120 a Pontiac (or something else equally lame) when I was supporting it...

My reference is racing to Hawaii, which is strictly downwind (and hopefully some reaching if you are on a J/120). Numerous J/120s have raced to Hawaii over the years and not one has ever done even reasonably well.

Also, nowadays a lot of the boats that rate similar to a J/120 can easily plane, at least in our area. The person asking about the J/120 has indicated they are looking for a boat that will plane easily.

 

[Crash]

109 sails are quite a bit smaller/cheaper than J111

Not trying to argue, trying to understand…

J/109 sail area 644 sqft
J/111 sail area 663 sqft.

19 sqft more, or less than 3% more than a 109.

 

[GHarring19]

Wow that new one in Rochester is mint - ironic name!

 

[Mike Clarke]

You should absolutely read John Harries’ website, Attainable Adventure Cruising, with the totally different web address of www.morganscloud.com. John just bought a J/109, downsizing from many years of blue water cruising a McCurdy and Rhodes 56. It amazed his fan base, but, as a J/120 owner, tickled me.

The J/120 does a lot of things really well. I just wrapped up 8 months of cruising mine in Mexico - much of it singlehanded. The nice thing about her overlapping headsail is a wider range. Put a 140 on the roller furler and you’ve got a lot of sail area to deploy in light air - which is pretty much the rule when cruising.

 

[Mike Clarke]

lol

Also, a J/111 with a fridge, water heater, pressure water, and an oven makes a fine cruiser. There is plenty of space and the v-berth is quite roomy. Only real downside is the head is in the v-berth and no shower. Super fun boat to sail and sail you will, because the J/111 is wicked in light air. We've really enjoyed both our J/120 and J/111 for racing. We loved cruising on the J/120, but found we rarely did it anymore, so got the J/111 because we are only racing now. Still love the J/120 for a true racer/cruiser or cruiser/racer.

We have looked at the J120. There are a few around that are reasonably priced but absolutely fanged. plus I never want checkstays in my life again! All great point from everyone, great input.

I know of an owner who asked Rod Johnstone about the checkstays and he said that they really aren't even necessary. No idea if the top OD boats use them or not.

San Francisco J/120s pretty much don’t use them in the Bay, but do use them on longer ocean races. It’s a wear and tear issue. Reducing the mast pumping by using the check stays reduces wear and tear over the long haul.

 

[Blur]

Put a 140 on the roller furler and you’ve got a lot of sail area to deploy in light air - which is pretty much the rule when cruising.

Or just cruise with a reefable 3.5 jib on a modern boat .
Works well from 4 knots when I see no other cruisers trying to sail - below doing 5.5 knots in 6 knots of wind.

Naturally the J/120 is a better cruiser, but personally I think 36-37' is a sweetspot - big enough to race/sail anywhere, but small enough to manage and be able to afford good sails & rigging to maximize the joy of the hours you spend at sea.

 

[T sailor]

Or just cruise with a reefable 3.5 jib on a modern boat .
Works well from 4 knots when I see no other cruisers trying to sail - below doing 5.5 knots in 6 knots of wind.

Naturally the J/120 is a better cruiser, but personally I think 36-37' is a sweetspot - big enough to race/sail anywhere, but small enough to manage and be able to afford good sails & rigging to maximize the joy of the hours you spend at sea.

I have a 120 and wish I had something 4’ shorter. It may not seem like much difference but the loads are lighter and move you down a size in hardware, cordage, etc…. Annual ownership costs are 15% cheaper. My next boat will definitely be a bit smaller (unless I win the lottery)….

 

[On The Hard]

I guess the guy who ordered it had his net worth in Carvana stock, or some other "Long Duration" investment. Ouch

That would be a hell of a buy for someone...all equipped and ready to go.

I'm on this thread because I fantasize about buying a J-109. I used to race but dropped out of that scene 25 years ago. )Landlocked) But I still like a boat that can sail worth a damn and could be handled by my wife and me. Seems like the sweet spot in many ways. I hadn't even thought about loads, but that's an important consideration with a less than enthusiastic spouse.

 

[221J]

Loads are a real and need to be thought through. As a 122 owner I have a few opinions. First, with 35'-40' boats the winches have to handle the significant loads. The loads are too high otherwise. The biggest pain is, or was for me, hoisting the main until I installed an electric winch. A racing crew doesn't need it but either single or couplehanding the boat it is really nice to not start a sail tired by a significant hoisting effort. After the main the big loads are moving sails around and you will be doing this unless you are main and rf jib only sailers. You don't want sails that you can't move. I can move all of mine. I know this because their storage is on my third floor and I have carried all of them both flights of stairs. On the boat I have strategies. Whenever possible I use a halyard to hoist spinnakers and codes from below decks into sailing position via the forward hatch. It's easier. To that end my large cruising spinnaker lives under the v-berth and the code zero in the v-berth or sole just aft of it. In a pinch I use the anchor locker to temporarily hold spinnakers.

I double and single hand my boat often and manage just fine. I'm late middle age and average size so I'm sure others can do what I do. Things that help - assymetric sails on a retracting pole versus symmetrics, base sail plan with no overlapping jib/genoa, good sized winches and rigging that has moved most functions into the cockpit. For instance, I can deploy and snuff/furl all spinnakers and codes from the cockpit. On a strategy side I have learned to accept good enough over perfection. An example of this is that I have no mainsail handling goodies, no boom or mast furler, no lazy jacks and no dutchman. When I pull down the main the big step is getting one sail tie around it after putting in a reef. One tie gets it under control and the real sail flaking can happen later when it is convenient.

I can understand sailors having size limits that they don't want to exceed. I was invited onto a J/45 recently and was immediately intimidated by the size and the associated loads. Nice boat but for me it would require more crew than I am used to. Getting back to 109's, they are among the best looking J Boats and I bet I would have 99% of the enjoyment I get from my boat on a 109.

 

[GHarring19]

I have a 120 and wish I had something 4’ shorter. It may not seem like much difference but the loads are lighter and move you down a size in hardware, cordage, etc…. Annual ownership costs are 15% cheaper. My next boat will definitely be a bit smaller (unless I win the lottery)….

112E - get it!