J121 whats the verdict

[port tack]

Whats the verdict after a couple years? Looks like a good bit of them for sale right now.

 

[jackolantern]

It was designed to do a lot of things and does none of them well

It's heavy, tender, requires a full crew to push hard, requires a large suit of sails, rates poorly, and isn't particularly well set up for any kind of racing.

 

[Hallpass]

Looked like they did well in Newport to Bermuda!

They definitely are underpowered and need breeze to be competitive. Horrible in PHRF due to the water ballast.

 

[port tack]

It was designed to do a lot of things and does none of them well

It's heavy, tender, requires a full crew to push hard, requires a large suit of sails, rates poorly, and isn't particularly well set up for any kind of racing.

Well Damn tell me how you really think. Lol.

Never sailed one buy have sailed against them, and the don't much if any faster than a J122. So I guess I agree

 

[jackolantern]

Looked like they did well in Newport to Bermuda!

Not sure why you would think that. Alchemy was 8/14 in class 15 and in Class 18 Eagle was 5/10 while wings went 8/10 and Ace retired.

You would think that a predominantly downwind race would benefit a boat which was designed to go fast off the breeze offshore.

Dark Storm, who posted 3rd in class 18 with a heavily pro'd out crew, is no longer a J/121. It has a much taller mast and square top main, longer bowsprit and the water ballast was deactivated.

 

[Schnick]

Its like they sort of got away with making the rig too short on the 111 and thought, hey, I wonder how much farther we can go?

 

[Hitchhiker]

Blueflash won it's division in Transpac 2019. Fairly breeze on year.

 

[Roleur]

Its like they sort of got away with making the rig too short on the 111 and thought, hey, I wonder how much farther we can go?

111 rig too short? It’s one of the highest aspect rigs on the course and less than two feet shorter than a 120 rig. It’s also the best light air boat J Boats has designed in at least 3 decades. Unfortunately, the 121 and 99 did not follow that trend.

I really want to love to the 121, but...

 

[JCoggs]

I own Ceilidh (ex Hot Pursuit), hull number 7. We are about to enter our second full season. We stayed local (New England) last year and sailed PHRF. We finished second in the summer long Buzzards Bay Trophy series. We sail with 7-10 crew and do not use the (minimal) water ballast as you take a 6 or 9 second penalty under PHRF. As near as I know none of the 5 boats in the northeast elect to use the ballast when racing sailing fully crewed. It sure comes in handy during shorthanded transports! I know of one that totally removed it. It's definitely not a short course boat. They have done well longer stuff like the 2018 Bermuda Race and Transpac. Joe Brito has been very successful with Incognito, particularly at Block Island Race Week. I agree you need to see about 10-12 knots of wind to start to be competitive. And if there is a lack of downwind sailing where you can use the sprit you can pretty much write off doing well with just the little 105% "genoa". We will be doing the Halifax Race this summer and racing ORR. We will see what happens. She seems to be well built and short cruises just fine with 3 or 4 so long as you don't expect luxury. Sails great with the small J4 set aft of the forestay when it starts to blow or short handed.

 

[Schnick]

111 rig too short? It’s one of the highest aspect rigs on the course and less than two feet shorter than a 120 rig. It’s also the best light air boat J Boats has designed in at least 3 decades. Unfortunately, the 121 and 99 did not follow that trend.

I really want to love to the 121, but...

I just spent the weekend looking at the front of a 111 from the cockpit of a 109, in light air. And that was not much of a change from doing the same on my Schock 35.

Once the breeze is up over 14 or so the 111s are great and they take off.

I don't think it's too hard to infer the rigs could have been 3 or 4 feet taller.

 

[Roleur]

I just spent the weekend looking at the front of a 111 from the cockpit of a 109, in light air. And that was not much of a change from doing the same on my Schock 35.

Once the breeze is up over 14 or so the 111s are great and they take off.

I don't think it's too hard to infer the rigs could have been 3 or 4 feet taller.

That's funny, because I just spent the weekend looking at the stern of two 109s when the breeze was 12-17 after the 109s found the breeze first, but as soon as it got light we passed them both. Twice. (current and no breeze does create a shuffle sometimes). Too be fair, I wouldn't draw much of anything from that race as the current and big wind holes were far more impactful than raw boat speed. A Hotfoot 27 and J/30 beat both the 109s and the 111s.

The last thing the 111 needs is a taller rig. It's already a rather tender boat and powers up very quickly. I'll say it this way. The 111 owners in the PNW are very happy with the boats light air performance. That's one of the reasons there are now 7 vs. 2, 3 years ago and in general we are very happy to race the 109s in light air, even factoring in the rating difference. All that said, the Vancouver 109s are some of the best sailed boats in the PNW, so yeah, they find their way to the front plenty often. The 111s have some pretty good results too in the Salish Sea. Sadly none of the Vancouver 109s are racing Van Isle this year. 4 111s though.

 

[MPH]

I would take a 111 vs a 109 in ANY light air handicap race. W/L or random leg.

What the 111s benefit from is a very slippery easily driven hull form that does not require tons of sail area to get the thing to go.

 

[MPH]

I would take a 111 vs a 109 in ANY light air handicap race. W/L or random leg.

What the 111s benefit from is a very slippery easily driven hull form that does not require tons of sail area to get the thing to go.

 

[jackolantern]

The two part mast that weighs 100lbs too heavy for its size is a real head scratcher.

Brito has easily spent a million bucks on Incognito taking it well outside of standard J/121 spec and they choose to not race in universes where they might face real competition. The navigator fleet at BIRW, the PHRF point to point fleet at NYYC events, etc.

 

[JCoggs]

^ I would too. J Boats marketed it to be a boat for "adventure" type courses, never claiming it to be a good W/L boat. Yes the rig is a bit heavy. I suspect it's sectioned to fit into a 40' shipping container or at the very least strapped to the deck for cargo transport. Saved me money when trucking 1500 miles!

 

[jackolantern]

^ I would too. J Boats marketed it to be a boat for "adventure" type courses, never claiming it to be a good W/L boat. Yes the rig is a bit heavy. I suspect it's sectioned to fit into a 40' shipping container or at the very least strapped to the deck for cargo transport. Saved me money when trucking 1500 miles!

I think it says a lot that a J/122 beat all of the stock J/121s on elapsed time in the Bermuda Race this past year which was certainly an "adventure"

 

[Black Dog]

111 rig too short? It’s one of the highest aspect rigs on the course and less than two feet shorter than a 120 rig. It’s also the best light air boat J Boats has designed in at least 3 decades.

I disagree, the J122 was the best light air boat that Jboats designed in the last 3 decades.

 

[Roleur]

I disagree, the J122 was the best light air boat that Jboats designed in the last 3 decades.

The results in PNW (predominantly light air) do not support that. We do have two J/122s that have had some great results, but not in light air. One of those won Van Isle 360 a few years ago and Vic Maui and are back for Van Isle 360 again against 4 J/111s, so we might get some good data. The J/122 rates just slightly slower in general than the J/111 in ORC, so we will see them plenty and should have a range of conditions over 9 legs and 750nm.

Also, the ORC data doesn't support it either. I just picked two boats, a very well prepped J/122 and J/111 that have virtually the same APH (510ish). The J/111 rates faster than the J/122 in under 10 knots. The J/122 is faster in 10-16 and then they are similar above that. That suggests that if you use a single number rating, the J/111 would prefer breeze under 10 knots.

 

[jackolantern]

I know Black Dog used to have a 122 and it was (I believe) on Buzzards Bay where it's relatively windy. He's a good sailor and there's a good J/111 there (Wicked) to compete against so it's possible that he's had some success against them when it gets lighter.

That said, in general, I see the 111 as being pretty untouchable in under 8 knots of breeze/

 

[Squalamax]

I just spent the weekend looking at the front of a 111 from the cockpit of a 109, in light air. And that was not much of a change from doing the same on my Schock 35.

Once the breeze is up over 14 or so the 111s are great and they take off.

I don't think it's too hard to infer the rigs could have been 3 or 4 feet taller.

That 111 was very poorly sailed then. Well sailed 111's are untouchable by 109's(and many other boats) in under 8 knots of breeze. If the 109's are using class sails(in that breeze) they will get lapped by a 111.