J70, cheating and pros

[DtM]

Look at any real one dsign (505, GP14, Star,  whatever) and you will see drawings, offsets, measurement stations, tolerances and tight language controlling shape between stations.
 

Stars are not one design.

 

[fastyacht]

Stars are not one design.

Really?
Oh boy here we go again....

What are they then?

Have you raced a star?

Have you read the class rules? (I have).

 

[DtM]

Explain then how some boats have high floors and others don't and therefore venturis or not.  How the position of runners is different boat to boat. How there are different mast controls boat to boat.

They are built to a rule that does not make them one design. 

 

[fastyacht]

Explain then how some boats have high floors and others don't and therefore venturis or not.  How the position of runners is different boat to boat. How there are different mast controls boat to boat.

They are built to a rule that does not make them one design. 

Oh my god do not conflate "one design" with "SMOD."  Not the same thing.
Every star has the same hull shape to a tolerance.
Every star has a minimum weight of hull per square cm over all of its length. I in fact it matches a cedar planked star's weight distribution.
Every star has the same max and min weights.
Every star has a keel and fins that must meet a template.
Every star has the same sail area and sail dimensions.
Every star has a defined mast step area with tolerances....
The high floor doesn't effect the speed. Neither do the particular locations and arrangements of the backstays--by the rule.

Every one design class has a certain amount of freedom to choose different outfitting---even some SMODs do to varying degrees.

To Not be a one design, the basic arrangemnt of the boat is not fixed.

The star class is about 100 years old. The class has adopted some new ideas. That does not make it a development class or a "not one design."
 

 

[DtM]

All of your points are correct.  And yes I have sailed them and owned two.

To me that does not equate to one design but rather design within tolerances.

Matter of language use and definition.  You have yours, I have mine.  Happy to move on..

Potato. Potato.

 

[fastyacht]

All of your points are correct.  And yes I have sailed them and owned two.

To me that does not equate to one design but rather design within tolerances.

Matter of language use and definition.  You have yours, I have mine.  Happy to move on..

Potato. Potato.

Well just so you know, the prevailing definition is mine. Yours is conflated with "rule" based boats or "development" classes. There is *one* design for the star. You meet it or you don't sail. A boat with a rule, you have tradeoffs---6 meter rule for instance --- or different paths you can take within some set of min/max: moth, or intl 14 or canoe for instance. Scow moths, are very different from the more melonseed ones but they both met the rule.  Stars are one design.  They aren't V-15s which are SMOD.  They have the same sort of variability as a comet, a snipe, a penguin, or a lightning. Are these others not one design either? That's really the point.

But back on topic I think it is interesting that multiple people have made a point to steer the discussion back to CHEATING being the only topic to be discussed here. As if we don't see that indeed some of the see J70 guys cheated outright. Well yes. I guess that is good to reiterate. But we also see a stjupid problem developoing in the J70 with untenable rules.

 

[Zaney]

Lasers are different from a J70.  I got a laser truck to myself (21boats) and cherry picked the best hull, uppers, lowers, blades, etc.   If you have the chance. Its better than getting a shit boat, out of a box.       And btw 4 out of the 21 were good. 1 better than others.

When you have no rules other than don't touch things.  It invites trouble.  I've seen it in the past. I'm about to see it in the future with the Viper class.  Current rules say you cant touch anything. The new boats we just got don't measure in.  Once we Hit something and have to repair the keel.  Then we HAVE to tear it down and make it fit the class template.  What's faster? I don't know. But leaving things open is Inviting issues...  To many Grey Areas.

I blame this on the Class officers that should have dealt with this YEARS AGO!!!  You can poke at the builders a bit. But, no.  They build them.  The owners decide how the rules should be.  The guys that got kicked for cheating.  Yeah they most likely knew better. but still, if you cant touch it, why are guys sanding the keels During the measurement?????  I mean really???  Half the class probably is scared to wetsand anything. The other half is trying to make it work right, and or fixing builder problems.  To many Grey Areas... Obviously there are WAY to many Grey areas....

There's a whole lot of, Not making sense, going on in the J70.     I'm glad I have a M24 where Nothing makes fucking sense...

 

[longy]

Both Stars & 505 have enuff +/- in their hull measurements that different hull shapes can still be legal. Ask any top flite Star sailor about the differences between Folli, Mader & Koumoujian hull shapes & you'll get a long discourse. Phillipe Kahn tried to develop a new 505 to support more crew weight to allow him to compete evenly in the class.

 

[ojfd]

While the class has done the right thing, we now have to hope that higher authority takes action, but seeing who it is, I doubt it. Deliberate cheating needs further action because just missing a regatta is not sufficient a penalty.

There's some talk about Rule 69 in this German article:

http://segelreporter.com/regatta/j70-worlds-erwischt-ex-weltmeister-alberini-und-sechs-crews-nach-betrug-nicht-zugelassen/

Google translation is poor, but you'll get the idea. It's the same source that posted those videos on Youtube, btw.

In all, a dozen keels should have been criticized. Two teams are supposed to have machined the keels for post-surveying to make them suitable for the stencils. They now face a Rule 69 protest because of unfairness. It is not permissible to deal with the keel at all. But there will be a shipyard in Riva on Lake Garda, which regularly carries out such tasks for the Italians.

 

[fastyacht]

"different hull shapes" is all relative.
Do notice that while Mader has been quite dominant in the Star, Folli and Lilia have had their moments of brilliance too.
In the 505, there are multiple "superboat" hull shapes that all vie for world champion status.

The existence of variations due to tolerances is not a problem in actual practice. But it is endless grist for the mill.

 

[Team_GBR]

"different hull shapes" is all relative.
Do notice that while Mader has been quite dominant in the Star, Folli and Lilia have had their moments of brilliance too.
In the 505, there are multiple "superboat" hull shapes that all vie for world champion status.

The existence of variations due to tolerances is not a problem in actual practice. But it is endless grist for the mill.

It is not relevant because in those cases it is done legally and what we are discussing is cheating. it would only be relevant if somebody was deliberately building illegal Stars or 505's hoping to get away with it.

 

[fastyacht]

It is not relevant because in those cases it is done legally and what we are discussing is cheating. it would only be relevant if somebody was deliberately building illegal Stars or 505's hoping to get away with it.

Yes. That is true.
But if the J70 were to develop some tolerances, it would be a rational approach. What they have now is untenable because there is no way to be clear. How much is too much wetsanding? When you do a repair you have to "put it back the way it was" but what was it?
Yes these cheater keels were completely re-worked.

 

[Bill E Goat]

Surely the keel and rudder are 3d machined female moulds.  Should be 100% accurate irrespective of where they are made.

 

[Team_GBR]

Yes. That is true.
But if the J70 were to develop some tolerances, it would be a rational approach. What they have now is untenable because there is no way to be clear. How much is too much wetsanding? When you do a repair you have to "put it back the way it was" but what was it?
Yes these cheater keels were completely re-worked.

The funny thing is, that for all the problems with the rules and build quality, it seems that the only people who got lobbed were ones who had deliberately reprofiled the keels. Funny how in a fleet of 162 boats, everybody but the cheaters seemed to have found the rules pretty clear. The rules cannot be hurting the class that much if they can get that sort of turnout.

 

[fastyacht]

But it is still a new class. Give them a few more years and see what happens. Boats age, manufacturing conti nues to vary.....it is a recipe for a mess.

 

[Chris in Santa Cruz CA]

Why cant anyone build a boat to the plans? Why cant the designers push some quality standards into the program in exchange for the right to sell boats with the brand name? Seems to me they step back too early in the process. Ive met them and sold them parts and I dont think for a minute they think this situation is acceptable. It doesnt in any way excuse the cheaters trying to slide their boats in. Its just that the lack of consistency in the builds opens a door for some folks.

 

[rgeek]

Cost

Improving build quality and building to tight build standard takes investment or labour or both. It's usually justified by adding carbon to the lay up and saying "the boats are expensive but they last for ever". The j/70 wouldn't be the massive world wide hit it is if it cost what that would take.

May be one set of 'production' rules for the Corinthians and a 'grand prix' set for people who want to pro it up might be worth consulting on.

 

[MR.CLEAN]

The answer by Mr. Recchi is (obviously and easly) very convincing, adressing all points.

 VO lost another chance to STFU, he will now be remembered as the main cheater in this controversy...

sometimes "silence is golden"

Recchi's has at least as many things wrong as Vincenzo's

 

[MR.CLEAN]

Yep, there are some astonishingly naive posts on this thread for those who've studied something of the history of measurement/compliance issues.

Its interesting that one of the Mascalzone boats passed measurement and the other one didn't. Makes me wonder if there's an element of cockup in this sorry tale. 

The one that failed was the brand new one that papa bought for son and then sent to "the best yard' to get it ready for Worlds.  Jr. never sailed the 70 before.

 

[roca]

Recchi's has at least as many things wrong as Vincenzo's

"at least as many"....maybe is a bit strong? I understand friends are friends but....

what doesn't convince you in mr Recchi's letter?

thx

ps I thought you would answer post #56...it would be elegant in the context   (did not quote again, hope you appreciate)