Cal20sailor
Super Anarchist
From a purely nationalistic viewpoint:
I hope our cheaters are as good as their cheaters!
I hope our cheaters are as good as their cheaters!
J70, cheating and pros
- Thread starter DarkHorse
- Start date
chuso007
Super Anarchist
Pretty cool live coverage from Mr. Clean, given the little resources...
Not much work getting done today.
Not much work getting done today.
JimC
Not actually an anarchist.
That's kinda the point.
If I read it correctly you're saying that all the boats that failed had a very similar illegally modified profile. It seems unlikely that all those owners specified the exact same illegal profile utterly independently.
Then if papa was tweaking a boat for his son, you'd expect it to be the same spec as his own, that is presumably as optimised as he can get it. Instead as one passed and the other one didn't: they must have been pretty different. So I doubt papa supplied the yard with detailed drawings showing to the millimetre what changes he wanted made.
I bet if one could find the true story of how these boats came to be illegally modified it would involve poor communication, misunderstanding, false assumptions and goodness knows what else as much as a desire to cheat. If the organisers wish to RRS69 people, they'd need to establish who gave what instructions, all the rest. Fairly recent AC history illustrates the difficulties in establishing who was responsible for deciding to cheat. Fortunately to exclude illegal boats from the event you don't need any of the history, you just need to demonstrate the boat fails measurement.
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Cal20sailor
Super Anarchist
After say three of an assumed 9 races, randomize the boats and crews.
Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
The Viper Class rules specify that the hull cannot be faired. The keel can be faired or repaired but if a keel has any work done it must comply with a class supplied template with tight tolerances which is available to members. We are a class that has a strict "as supplied by builder" basis to the rules but as the class grew the owners and their Technical Committee acknowledged the reality that foils get damaged and occasional imperfections occur in even the best production line. The rules were promptly amended to introduce a template. There is no temptation to veer away from the builder supplied shape because that shape is fast.
In the history of the class we have had one keel that did not measure in at a major championship . There was a spare keel available which was offered to the owner so that he had an opportunity to participate which he declined. Throughout the process the TC and the other owners never contemplated the word cheat. We took the view that it was a mistaken interpretation of the rules and the process is bruising enough for a disqualified boat's owner without speculating needlessly on intention. He wasnt happy (miami is a long way) but everyone shook his hand, wished him well and hoped he would be back.
Tough break for the J70s but they will fix it. A well run class and its members should possess the humility to know that there is always room for improvement when it comes to class rules. The Viper Class has closed some loopholes in the past (fortunately without being in the glare of publicity). Doubtless there are parts of our existing rules which we will look back on in 5 years with embarrassment. The class rules are entirely owner driven aiming to make racing as fair and fun as possible.
Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
Vincenzo should never have written his letter.
His son's boat was ruled by class measurer as not in compliance with class rules. You are entitled to disagree with that decision and have a hearing. There is no disrespect in asking for a hearing. But when the jury agree with the measurement process you accept the decision with courtesy.
Even if you disagree with the jury or even if the jury made a procedural error, you do not embark on a public tirade against your hosts.
- Moderator
- #207
Thanks Chuso, should be much better tomorrow once they split fleets and we have a better boat.
- Moderator
- #208
Let me look..."at least as many"....maybe is a bit strong? I understand friends are friends but....
what doesn't convince you in mr Recchi's letter?
thx
ps I thought you would answer post #56...it would be elegant in the context(did not quote again, hope you appreciate)
Recchi's letter keeps talking about 'the biggest one design regatta' or whatever, and it is not true.
- Moderator
- #209
Sorry, missed this one until now. The reason Charlie was not listed is that his owner did not register the names of the crew. I ran with the info I had and would never shield Charlie from the news, not the way I play. His name is going up there now.
- Moderator
- #210
6 of them from the same yard. One modified similarly, but done independently. And there are a bunch more keels floating around Europe with issues.
chuso007
Super Anarchist
Was there a third race?
chuso007
Super Anarchist
Ok I see it now...
- Moderator
- #213
Onorato and the current commodore had a huge falling out back in 2010 for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into, needless to say he does not forgive and he likes to make some noise every now and again. I agree he did himself no favors, but there's a reason Italians are known as the fiery ones.
Locus
locus
505 class rules state that any major work being done the boat must be re-measured before a class event. Specifically it must be weighed and correctors adjusted if necessary.
Also many of the above referenced attempts to change the 505 were either rejected at the measurement level or the class level. Khans boats, the double floor Parker etc.
So yes the tolerances are pretty big, and it results in different boats for different people but its still one design in so many areas. I only think the development portion is that the class regularly makes changes to improve the boat , long luff, HA foils, dual poles etc. I think that because of the scrutiny and flexibility there are less not more attempts to game (not cheat) the measurement system. People seem to know that these changes will be noticed and called out and that if you need a specific configuration,more rocker, fore or aft etc. that you can build one or purchase one with that feature, be competitive and still within the rules.
So with the J-70 why are the boats not measured after the boat yard experience and issued a new certificate with the repair noted. Seems like that would discourage changing the keel wedges etc. Even our opti had a measurement book where we were supposed to note any repairs or alterations to specific parts of the boat.
Also many of the above referenced attempts to change the 505 were either rejected at the measurement level or the class level. Khans boats, the double floor Parker etc.
So yes the tolerances are pretty big, and it results in different boats for different people but its still one design in so many areas. I only think the development portion is that the class regularly makes changes to improve the boat , long luff, HA foils, dual poles etc. I think that because of the scrutiny and flexibility there are less not more attempts to game (not cheat) the measurement system. People seem to know that these changes will be noticed and called out and that if you need a specific configuration,more rocker, fore or aft etc. that you can build one or purchase one with that feature, be competitive and still within the rules.
So with the J-70 why are the boats not measured after the boat yard experience and issued a new certificate with the repair noted. Seems like that would discourage changing the keel wedges etc. Even our opti had a measurement book where we were supposed to note any repairs or alterations to specific parts of the boat.
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J T
Member
- 352
- 0
You guys have to give it up with the comparisons to Stars and facking 505's. Those are not "production" boats. The j/70's are. Their rules are such that unless specifically allowed, nothing may be changed. Period. No tolerances like 5 0hs, Snipes and Stars who made those tolerances originally for home building and multiple builders.
Certainly, each boat is not identical due to many factors, including human, but I have a hard time believing that every top J70 team "shopped" their boats before purchasing. Perhaps, but I'm betting not. I assume that each J70 mold was made from one plug. They may shop out the foils and keels, I really don't know.
But the bottom line is it is a production boat, with strict rules. Changing the shape or profile of any appendage or hull form is verboten. Period.
Do not cheat and you can play. Cheat and get caught, you may not play.
Certainly, each boat is not identical due to many factors, including human, but I have a hard time believing that every top J70 team "shopped" their boats before purchasing. Perhaps, but I'm betting not. I assume that each J70 mold was made from one plug. They may shop out the foils and keels, I really don't know.
But the bottom line is it is a production boat, with strict rules. Changing the shape or profile of any appendage or hull form is verboten. Period.
Do not cheat and you can play. Cheat and get caught, you may not play.
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Raked Aft\\
Super Anarchist
How about instead of measuring all boats prior to the event, you measure the top 5 after the event.
zero tolerance expulsion for measurement infractions.
have a chief measurer available prior to the event for participants who want to voluntarily verify compliance of their boat beforehand.
zero tolerance expulsion for measurement infractions.
have a chief measurer available prior to the event for participants who want to voluntarily verify compliance of their boat beforehand.
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Nope. Then you're going to string up people for potentially honest and small errors that could have easily been fixed and measured in. Everyone makes mistakes now and then - for instance getting a lifeline stantion bent too far outboard during transport.
