J70, cheating and pros

[fastyacht]

You guys have to give it up with the comparisons to Stars and facking 505's.  Those are not "production" boats.  The j/70's are.  Their rules are such that unless specifically allowed, nothing may be changed.  Period.  No tolerances like 5 0hs, Snipes and Stars who made those tolerances originally for home building and multiple builders. 

Certainly, each boat is not identical due to many factors, including human, but I have a hard time believing that every top J70 team "shopped" their boats before purchasing.  Perhaps, but I'm betting not.   I assume that each J70 mold was made from one plug.   They may shop out the foils and keels, I really don't know. 

But the bottom line is it is a production boat, with strict rules.  Changing the shape or profile of any appendage or hull form is verboten.  Period.

Do not cheat and you can play.  Cheat and get caught, you may not play.

That's a nice sentiment but given time, it becomes an unworkable position. Look at the J24. At some point you end up with new or multiple builders, with boats that have been restored after damage etc.

 

[Monkey]

Nope.  Then you're going to string up people for potentially honest and small errors that could have easily been fixed and measured in.  Everyone makes mistakes now and then - for instance getting a lifeline stantion bent too far outboard during transport.

Completely agree. Imagine if you were perfectly honest and thought you'd done everything right, only to find the load cell you'd weighed the boat with back home was a little off and you were missing a couple pounds of corrector weights. 

 

[ojfd]

Completely agree. Imagine if you were perfectly honest and thought you'd done everything right, only to find the load cell you'd weighed the boat with back home was a little off and you were missing a couple pounds of corrector weights. 

If you're perfectly honest, use calibrated load cell. It's that simple.

 

[Monkey]

If you're perfectly honest, use calibrated load cell. It's that simple.

Not always your choice. Let's say you did some local qualifier and weighed in right on the money. How many times have you asked to see the calibration certification at a regatta?  Would you want to get tossed because your boat came up two pounds light when you could've spent five minutes gluing a weight in? 

I have no problem with immediate post regatta inspections as well as the pre-race inspections for the top boats though. 

 

[Christian]

OK fine:
1. GP14 is one design. So is 505. NOT "box" rule. Have you ever sailed or owned a 505?

I'll add more:

thistle
lighting

snipe

windmill

STAR

.....

the list goes on.....
and these boats are raced in numbers to this day....

Lots of other examples....

I have sailed 505's quite a bit.  Only the hullform is "OD" with templates but material is open, as is spars and rigging. Using a 505 as an example of an OD class is rediculous

Neither is the I14 you used in your list.

A bunch of the boats on your second list are also (tight) boxes - such as the star - rather than strict OD 

 

[Christian]

OK fine:
1. GP14 is one design. So is 505. NOT "box" rule. Have you ever sailed or owned a 505?

I'll add more:

thistle
lighting

snipe

windmill

STAR

.....

the list goes on.....
and these boats are raced in numbers to this day....

Lots of other examples....

I have sailed 505's quite a bit.  Only the hullform is "OD" with templates but material is open, as is spars and rigging. Using a 505 as an example of an OD class is rediculous

Neither is the I14 you used in your list.

A bunch of the boats on your second list are also (tight) boxes - such as the star - rather than strict OD 

 

[fastyacht]

Lots of quibbling.
Never said the I14 was a one design.
masts are restricted. No carbon. Aluminum or wood only. 4" max dimension (no wings).
Star as a "box" rule is laughable. Not at all true. I have the rule book.
Yes you could say that the 505 has some devlelopment elements:
blades
rigging
structural material
Still a one design though,
I also race canoes. They are not one design.

THe "ridiculous" part is coming from you notr understanding the POINT:
How to make a rule that can actually measure a boat to achieve substantially one-design results.
505, thistle, whathaveyou etc etc etc are good examples of this.
Just saying" no modifications or work permitted" won't work long term. Stuff breaks. Stuff wears out.

 

[billy backstay]

How about instead of measuring all boats prior to the event, you measure the top 5  after the event.

 zero tolerance expulsion for measurement infractions. 

  have a chief measurer available prior to the event for participants who want to voluntarily verify compliance of their boat beforehand.

That is a great solution, IMO.  Just like the winning 3 F1 cars are scrutinized after the race for compliance.  

 

[billy backstay]

Nope.  Then you're going to string up people for potentially honest and small errors that could have easily been fixed and measured in.  Everyone makes mistakes now and then - for instance getting a lifeline stantion bent too far outboard during transport.

It certainly would work if, as suggested, measurement compliance in advance, is available to all competitors.

 

[fastyacht]

My favourite story of all time involving rules and how to game them is from early NASCAR> you probably know that story.

 

[DarkHorse]

M24 has simple templates to measure fins against during pre-race measurement - it appears the J70 has them now as well ( you can see in the video the simple measurements and failures) - a little fairing does not seem to be the issue here. As clean inimate, there may be boats with additional internal structure. Apparently, there are some M24s that became more 'successful one designs'  after 'repairs' - still they had to meet 10-15 basic measurements, but structure and hull 'fariness' may not have been measured. Still these j70 fin measurement issues look to be grossly out of sync with fair play intent. Glad to see they have finally reigned it in. Its hard to believe the class grew this big with these known 'measurement' problems - these could be all recent and only related to Italy but with Greenwalds' issues, it seems to be rampant in the class.

 

[easyrider]

F1 has strict measurement of all cars on a regular basis and then does spot checks on the winning cars.  THis is not really a valid comparison for sailing regattas.

The assumption that only the top 5 boats need to be measured and legal discredits the efforts of all other racers.  All boats should measure properly so the 30th boat knows the 28th place boat didn't beat him/her due to an illegality.  

The fact that our sport has this problem....is a problem.  

Well done ITA J70 class association for taking proper steps to run a legitimate world championships.  BRAVO!!

This should be a mandate for all regattas.

 

[Christian]

Lots of quibbling.
Never said the I14 was a one design.
masts are restricted. No carbon. Aluminum or wood only. 4" max dimension (no wings).
Star as a "box" rule is laughable. Not at all true. I have the rule book.
Yes you could say that the 505 has some devlelopment elements:
blades
rigging
structural material
Still a one design though,
I also race canoes. They are not one design.

THe "ridiculous" part is coming from you notr understanding the POINT:
How to make a rule that can actually measure a boat to achieve substantially one-design results.
505, thistle, whathaveyou etc etc etc are good examples of this.
Just saying" no modifications or work permitted" won't work long term. Stuff breaks. Stuff wears out.

Maybe reading it and seeing the various different hull forms are not your strong side...........................

Go sit in your box - correction OD 

 

[fastyacht]

Christian---that is so silly. Tolerances. That's all. Still a one design. ALL one designs have this small "variation in shape"
They are not different "hull FORMS."  That is a gross distortion of what the small distortions actually mean.

Minimizing rocker is the most important one. But this isn't new, it goes way back. And is a small effect.
Having actually raced them back when the class was very very competitive (and I wasn't) I can tell you that Lillia, Mader and Folli all won championships. There was no clear advantage from one builder. That's the beauty of a good one design rule.
You can get all worked up about the tolerances and shout from the rooftops, "but it isn't a one design---look at the tolerances!" but in practice that is a deluded conceit.

 

[DtM]

"different hull shapes" is all relative.
Do notice that while Mader has been quite dominant in the Star, Folli and Lilia have had their moments of brilliance too.

So one can order a Mader designed and built hull or a Lilia designed and built hull or a Folli designed and built hull (just to take your example) each of which goes to some different corners of the tolerances in their design. and you still want to call that ONE design.  There are three just from your own example (never mind updates).

Then they are all fitted out differently.  Not to the one design.

What you have is different hull forms that fit tolerances.  Just because you choose to call that one design does not make it so. Just because the Star Class calls themselves one design also does not make it so if you give the word "one" its natural meaning.

 

[Tetonsail]

Vincenzo should never have written his letter.

Is this letter posted somewhere?

 

[fastyacht]

This is all so far off topic now.
I think you are missing the important point, which is absolute differences are very small.
Percentage differences are miniscule.
Whether you have a track or not or a high floor or a low one isn't fundamental>

Multiple champion sailors have sailed multiple builders boats to silver.

I am simply astounded by this argument. Do you have an agenda?

 

[fastyacht]

Is this letter posted somewhere?

It was posted here. Look upthread for the linky.

 

[JohnMB]

I have sailed 505's quite a bit.  Only the hullform is "OD" with templates but material is open, as is spars and rigging. Using a 505 as an example of an OD class is rediculous

Neither is the I14 you used in your list.

A bunch of the boats on your second list are also (tight) boxes - such as the star - rather than strict OD 

US sailing provides both a description of what it thinks One Design Means,

One-design is a form of racing where all boats are virtually identical or similar in design

Class-legal boats race each other without any handicap calculations, start at the same time, and the winner is the first to cross the finish line

and a list of one design boats.

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/small-boat-racing/one-design/list-of-one-design-classes/

This list of course includes, 505's, Stars, and many others.

You can say that the list is wrong, but that doesn't really help communication, you then have to make sure everyone knows that you mean One Design in a different way that US sailing (and probably many other national bodies ) use the term, and as a result different from the way most sailors use the term, and then explain exactly what you mean by it.

 

[Christian]

US sailing provides both a description of what it thinks One Design Means,

and a list of one design boats.

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/small-boat-racing/one-design/list-of-one-design-classes/

This list of course includes, 505's, Stars, and many others.

You can say that the list is wrong, but that doesn't really help communication, you then have to make sure everyone knows that you mean One Design in a different way that US sailing (and probably many other national bodies ) use the term, and as a result different from the way most sailors use the term, and then explain exactly what you mean by it.

That litmus test you applied here also would then have class 40's, open 60's, tp 52's etc be "OD"