J70, cheating and pros

Onorato and the current commodore had a huge falling out back in 2010 for reasons I'm not at liberty to go into, needless to say he does not forgive and he likes to make some noise every now and again.  I agree he did himself no favors, but there's a reason Italians are known as the fiery ones.  
Alan.....you will recall that my old lady is Italian. Beautiful....amazing chef.....loves sailing.....good company and laughter.....AND some occasional tableware flying through the air. Its all good.

 

JL92S

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Are all the binned boats European built? Last year Vincenzo lost his shit at the Swan worlds (also YCCS) after he protested his main rival in the s&s class for being improperly rated under ORC, they did a full re measurement of the protested boat and it turned out an even lower rating than before! Vincenzo had turned up with a fully optimised Swan 38 with most of the interior removed and was expected to walk away with the class win. It's fair to say that he didn't attend any more socials, skipped prize giving and went home. I see a pattern here lol the word around that regatta was that it was a particularly bad showing from him and he was overly sore

 
Are all the binned boats European built? Last year Vincenzo lost his shit at the Swan worlds (also YCCS) after he protested his main rival in the s&s class for being improperly rated under ORC, they did a full re measurement of the protested boat and it turned out an even lower rating than before! Vincenzo had turned up with a fully optimised Swan 38 with most of the interior removed and was expected to walk away with the class win. It's fair to say that he didn't attend any more socials, skipped prize giving and went home. I see a pattern here lol the word around that regatta was that it was a particularly bad showing from him and he was overly sore
Sounds like he has the right temperament for an AC campaign.

 

JohnMB

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That litmus test you applied here also would then have class 40's, open 60's, tp 52's etc be "OD"
I'm not sure those meet the 'similar' test well enough. And I don't see any evidence that other people do think they meet that test.

My main point was that saying Stars and 505s are not one design is very clearly outside the usage most sailor would use.

 
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sailman

Super Anarchist
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Some one designs are more one design than other one designs.

Does that clear it up?

Back on point, changing the molded shape of the keel or bulb is flat out cheating according to the class rules as written.

 

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
Do you remember the J24 worlds in Italy where the builder had altered the boats so much you tell when you just looked at them, the Italian measurer's had measured them in for the the Italian and Europeans.

I think they got lifetime bans

 

KC375

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US sailing provides both a description of what it thinks One Design Means,

and a list of one design boats.

http://www.ussailing.org/racing/small-boat-racing/one-design/list-of-one-design-classes/

This list of course includes, 505's, Stars, and many others.

You can say that the list is wrong, but that doesn't really help communication, you then have to make sure everyone knows that you mean One Design in a different way that US sailing (and probably many other national bodies ) use the term, and as a result different from the way most sailors use the term, and then explain exactly what you mean by it.
I’m confused (an admittedly common state for me). I always distinguished between development classes and one design classes. I used to sail an international 14 – clearly a development class.

The USSailing list of one design classes includes the I-14 with a link to the class association. On the class association web site the first two sentences of intro includes:

being a development class, there is always something new in hull or rig to record. Change in fact, is what Fourteening is, and always will be, about.






So when did development classes become one design? When did one design become about “always something new in hull or rig”?

 

KC375

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Is it possible that USSailing is confusing level raising with one design? Two different concepts.

1. Level racing (finish order is finish order) vs handicap racing (finish order is finish time adjusted by some algorithm usually a source of ongoing debate and argument); and

2. One design (essentially identical boats) vs development class (different boats all meeting the same design "rules").

 

fastyacht

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US Sailing's site is sloppy. There is no category for "level racing" so they just lumped the 6 metres, 5.5 meters, 14s all in with "one design."

 

JohnMB

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US Sailing's site is sloppy. There is no category for "level racing" so they just lumped the 6 metres, 5.5 meters, 14s all in with "one design."
Well that fucks up that option for clarity.

I'm just trying to make sense of a world were people are saying that Stars are not one design and applying things that would also make Solings not One design. (Floors, rig setups etc). This leaves a large chunk of boats, without a reasonable description. They are not development classes, but they are not single builder one designs and they have some tolerance for variation  which can be exploited.

The problem is we end up with stupid semantic arguments instead of actual fruitful discussions.

 

fucket

Anarchist
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So one can order a Mader designed and built hull or a Lilia designed and built hull or a Folli designed and built hull (just to take your example) each of which goes to some different corners of the tolerances in their design. and you still want to call that ONE design.  There are three just from your own example (never mind updates).

Then they are all fitted out differently.  Not to the one design.

What you have is different hull forms that fit tolerances.  Just because you choose to call that one design does not make it so. Just because the Star Class calls themselves one design also does not make it so if you give the word "one" its natural meaning.
Yes, I will still call that one design. Tolerances are an unavoidable part of building things in reality.

 

fastyacht

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One thing is clear or perhaps even the Fractious Few of us agree on. For the present moment, the J70 is a "SMOD" (single manufacturer one design.)  All of the Unintended Consequences apply. See Lasers, see J24, etc. Also note that some successful classes started out as SMOD and became classes. Thistle is an old example. JY15 would be a (nearly moribund) example. There are quite a number of classes that lost their single builder at some point.

The SMOD is sold (starting in earnest in the '80s) on the "simplicity" and "fairness" but that is often a conceit in my opinion. 
 

I used to own and race a V15. That was an SMOD. Lost its builder.....
One ironic thing about that was that there was no measurement at nationals.
 

 
One thing is clear or perhaps even the Fractious Few of us agree on. For the present moment, the J70 is a "SMOD" (single manufacturer one design.)  All of the Unintended Consequences apply. See Lasers, see J24, etc. Also note that some successful classes started out as SMOD and became classes. Thistle is an old example. JY15 would be a (nearly moribund) example. There are quite a number of classes that lost their single builder at some point.

The SMOD is sold (starting in earnest in the '80s) on the "simplicity" and "fairness" but that is often a conceit in my opinion. 
 

I used to own and race a V15. That was an SMOD. Lost its builder.....
One ironic thing about that was that there was no measurement at nationals.
 
But there are 4 factories building them now, and they are not owned by J or are they affiliated with one another...  is this not the case?

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.jboats.com/contact-us/builders/amp

CCF Composites in USA

J/Composites in France

McConaghy in China

J/Boats Argentina in Argentina (the newest)

So it is not one (single) manufacturing facility.  It is more of a case where the first boat was one design, the following boats will be close...

So in the future the Class has to implement rules where there will be a measure with a tolerance built in. 

 

J T

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THe "ridiculous" part is coming from you notr understanding the POINT:
How to make a rule that can actually measure a boat to achieve substantially one-design results.
505, thistle, whathaveyou etc etc etc are good examples of this.
Just saying" no modifications or work permitted" won't work long term. Stuff breaks. Stuff wears out.




1
Fast...The J70 class rule allows for fixing shit.  It allows you to replace broken stuff.  If your keel gets pitted or gouged from use, repair it.  The rule specifically allows for that.  What it doesn't allow for is reshaping.  That's the issue here. The OD rules are pretty simple, and they work.  They even worked in this case, as the keels that didn't measure WERE NOT tossed because the owner tried to repair them, they were tossed because the owner reshaped them, got caught, and subsequently got tossed.

This has nothing whatsoever to bad class rules.  It has to do with the mentality of certain racing owners.  99.86% of racing owners around the world don't cheat.  The other .14% hopefully get caught and get their comeuppance.  It just so happened in the case of the 2017 J70 World Championships, a big percentage of that .14% showed up at once and skewed the numbers.

 


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