J70, cheating and pros

[fucket]

Fast...The J70 class rule allows for fixing shit.  It allows you to replace broken stuff.  If your keel gets pitted or gouged from use, repair it.  The rule specifically allows for that. 

It's not really that cut and dry.

(c)
Gelcoat scratches and minimal damaged areas and minor molding imperfections such as print-through may be sanded and repaired, provided the as-molded shape in not altered
Define "minimal(ly) damaged." Anything beyond minimal damage would have to meet the rules of Section E.

MODIFICATIONS, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR
The following alterations may be made by a LM, or by anybody after a formal request  has been made to the LM and written approval is received by the owner. This shall require the manufacturer’s declaration to be reissued.
(a) If any hull appendage is damaged and requires to be repaired in any other way than described in section C the details shall be recorded on the Manufacturer’s declaration.
Given the scope and spirit of the rest of the rules, I would be inclined to interpret "minimal damage" in the strictest possible sense. That is, if you scrape a rock and gouge the keel, you should take a picture of the damage, send it to a LM and request permission to repair. The repair would then be documented and noted on the new cert.

 

[timber]

simple fix to this entire issue of shaping intentionally  cheating shapes to keels  of any OD Class is to write a rule into the Notice of Race which makes the penalty for cheating so onerous that cheating by ONE individual associated with the violation would be levied in equal measure to all associated with the boat.  Crew and owner alike in equal individual measure.

The idea that a boat is withdrawn after sailing a number of races and a slap on the wrist is given to it is bull****. That is not enough. The boat sailed and interfered with every other boat and person spending the coin to participate in the event. In my opinion the offenders should be fined in the amount of the entire fleet's entry fees both to the individuals paying the fee for a boat and to the association . the association can use the money to strengthen its ability to catch cheaters and the amount of the penalty to owners and crews on the offending boats will stop the cheating cold. Yes the cheating crew. And suspension as pros or amateurs till hell freezes. Fuck 'em. 

the dodge is "I didn't know!".   fuck 'em. Owners and Pros and the jerk who participates in shaping the 'cheat' are all guilty and the only thing that will make these dishonest fuckers stop is penalties too severe to ignore. 

To cheaters everywhere;  LEAVE AND DON'T COME BACK.

Strong opinion to be offered in future post........

 

[JimC]

Must be nice to live in a black and white world like that...

I sailed with an illegal boat for several years, misread the rules and didn't trim a bulkhead enough so the foredeck was 2mm too high. 

 

[DarkHorse]

Di you purposely and directly reshape the foredeck to gain a specific advantage? no, then only 15 lashes. if Yes, then keel haul.

Simple.

 

[timber]

Must be nice to live in a black and white world like that...

I sailed with an illegal boat for several years, misread the rules and didn't trim a bulkhead enough so the foredeck was 2mm too high. 

Did you self report or just not mention it. Your self built ? boat is not an intentional cheat. I am addressing post manufacture boats in international , national, regional competition.  Why go easy on them. Cheating at that level is intentional. The world is not black and white, I agree. At the level of the worlds disqualifying cheating should be the responsibility of the crew to know, the Owner to know and the shaper/modifier to know. How else to change the paradigm? 

 

[RKoch]

The crew may or may not know. The owner would be assumed to know, as he paid for the work. The BN or skipper may know, if they directed the work to be done. The yard or contractor doing the work certainly knows. 

I have been at different positions in similar situations...as owner, BN, crew, worker, sailmaker, and measurer. Everyone wants their boat to be up to snuff and as competitive as possible. Even strict rules have some grey areas. My personal experience is that if you're getting into a grey area, it's best to call the class measurer, make your case, and get approval (preferably in writing), before doing the work. That approach has never failed.

 

[Raked Aft\\]

I would make a strong assumption that any owner of a J70 who sails at any regional, national or international event knows of what just went down.

  Give that,  one would have to assume that any work/modification to their boat would be in full purview of said owner.

 

[JimC]

That approach has never failed.

It can though. This is based on a true story, but I've changed things and it should be unspottable. Please don't attempt. Fred buys a second hand boat from someone well known in a class' estate. Whilst working on boat finds a quite horrendous piece of cheating that cannot really be properly rectified. Calls up class measurer, long associated with class and buddy of Bill, the late boat builder. Measurer feels really bad for poor bastard stuck with useless piece of junk that can never measure properly, and also doesn't really want scandal in his beloved class, and besides old Bill is dead now, and what good can it do digging up a scandal? Says to Fred OK, supposing you do this and this, I'm sure the boat isn't going to be any quicker than one that is built properly. Next year dodgy boat, superbly sailed, is near the front at the Nationals. Different measurer takes a good look at it...

Now consider a different and *completely imaginary* scenario (yes, completely imaginary, this isn't based on anything I've heard). Boss of 'best yard' (BBY) is a wonderful craftsman, but was never near the top of the class when it came to anything intellectual like reading or writing. Some years ago Cheating Bastard came to BBYs yard and said I want you to make these changes. BBY says "are you sure that's allowed"? CB puts his best used car salesman voice on and says, "of course, don't you trust me". CB wins big event with illegally modified boat. Next year two of CBs competititors come to BBY and say, we want you to modify our boats just like CBs. BBY says "I'm really not sure that's legal". Competitors say, "of course it is, especially as CBs boat went through measurement fine at the big event" (Although actually they just checked sails and weight). BBY says, "well, OK then", and does the work. Next year a few more follow, and by this stage BBY hasn't got the slightest doubt left. After all he's not that good with words, and haven't all these boats been through measurement?. Now Mr Zillionaire wants his son to race in an event opposite him. Buys boat, sends it to BBY with the simple instruction: do the best job you can on this, no expense, its for my son to race". Boat is modified illegally, like all the others. Zillionaires son and his mates step off the plane, and take the boat to the event, never having seen one before or having the slightest idea its been modded let alone illegally. Cheating Bastard isn't even at the event.

Timber gives Zillionaires son and mates lifetime bans. Zillionaire takes Timber to CAS. How long do you reckon the hearing will last before the ban is overturned?

 

[Grrr...]

It certainly would work if, as suggested, measurement compliance in advance, is available to all competitors.

I missed the prior bit.  If you have the ability to measure in prior with the same measurer who is going to do the after inspection, then I'd be 100% for it.

 

[sailman]

In that scenario the ban should remain.  If you as a boat owner are allowing work to be done to your boat that you do not know with certainty is legal, you deserve the penalty.  Your excuse of "well everyone else is doing it" doesn't work for teenagers and it does hold water in this example.

 

[jesposito]

Some one designs are more one design than other one designs.

Does that clear it up?

Back on point, changing the molded shape of the keel or bulb is flat out cheating according to the class rules as written.

I wonder what they would say if you put a much different looking keel on the boat with at least a 1 ft less cord length on it? h34r:  

 

[knuckles]

But there are 4 factories building them now, and they are not owned by J or are they affiliated with one another...  is this not the case?

CCF Composites in USA

J/Composites in France

McConaghy in China

J/Boats Argentina in Argentina (the newest)

The easy answer is buy the J/70 built in Argentina.

 

[Tetonsail]

It would make sense to measure all boats before they leave the factory. This would likely reinsure future buyers that they are buying a legal boat. As it is right now who knows?

 

[JimC]

By definition all boats are legal as they leave the factory.

 

[billy backstay]

It would make sense to measure all boats before they leave the factory. This would likely reinsure future buyers that they are buying a legal boat. As it is right now who knows?

Why is this not done for a class as huge as this?  Every boat should be delivered with a measurement certificate, that can be measured against in the future to ensure compliance?  WTF is so difficult about that??

 

[J T]

Why is this not done for a class as huge as this?  Every boat should be delivered with a measurement certificate, that can be measured against in the future to ensure compliance?  WTF is so difficult about that??

Maybe they are measured.  Do you know for a fact that they are not?  You think they just pop them out and send them on their way?

Again, this keeps creeping back that this is the fault of the builders.  This is the fault of fucking cheating owners.  There is nothing that anyone has presented on this thread that leads me to believe otherwise.

 

[estarzinger]

.  99.86% of racing owners around the world don't cheat.

Lol, what alternate universe do you sail in?

First 7/175 = 4% rather than .14%.

And second cheating is reasonably pervasive thru the sport.  From the highest level (hello lead king post and mainsail which will not come down) to the mid-levels (hello j24many modifications) and to lower levels (hello youtube vids showing stacking and powered winch use in classes where they are not allowed).

It is a 'self-policing' sport, with many many opportunities to gain thru little evasions of the rules which are mostly not caught, filled with guys who often made their money by playing fast and lose with rules. It is unfortunately a perfect recipe for a lot of rule bending. 

 

[J T]

  The other .14% hopefully get caught and get their comeuppance.  It just so happened in the case of the 2017 J70 World Championships, a big percentage of that .14% showed up at once and skewed the numbers.

Dude. Are you a reporter for CNN?  You often pull quotes mid sentence without quoting "the rest of the story"? FFS

 

[timber]

It can though. This is based on a true story, but I've changed things and it should be unspottable. Please don't attempt. Fred buys a second hand boat from someone well known in a class' estate. Whilst working on boat finds a quite horrendous piece of cheating that cannot really be properly rectified. Calls up class measurer, long associated with class and buddy of Bill, the late boat builder. Measurer feels really bad for poor bastard stuck with useless piece of junk that can never measure properly, and also doesn't really want scandal in his beloved class, and besides old Bill is dead now, and what good can it do digging up a scandal? Says to Fred OK, supposing you do this and this, I'm sure the boat isn't going to be any quicker than one that is built properly. Next year dodgy boat, superbly sailed, is near the front at the Nationals. Different measurer takes a good look at it...

Now consider a different and *completely imaginary* scenario (yes, completely imaginary, this isn't based on anything I've heard). Boss of 'best yard' (BBY) is a wonderful craftsman, but was never near the top of the class when it came to anything intellectual like reading or writing. Some years ago Cheating Bastard came to BBYs yard and said I want you to make these changes. BBY says "are you sure that's allowed"? CB puts his best used car salesman voice on and says, "of course, don't you trust me". CB wins big event with illegally modified boat. Next year two of CBs competititors come to BBY and say, we want you to modify our boats just like CBs. BBY says "I'm really not sure that's legal". Competitors say, "of course it is, especially as CBs boat went through measurement fine at the big event" (Although actually they just checked sails and weight). BBY says, "well, OK then", and does the work. Next year a few more follow, and by this stage BBY hasn't got the slightest doubt left. After all he's not that good with words, and haven't all these boats been through measurement?. Now Mr Zillionaire wants his son to race in an event opposite him. Buys boat, sends it to BBY with the simple instruction: do the best job you can on this, no expense, its for my son to race". Boat is modified illegally, like all the others. Zillionaires son and his mates step off the plane, and take the boat to the event, never having seen one before or having the slightest idea its been modded let alone illegally. Cheating Bastard isn't even at the event.

Timber gives Zillionaires son and mates lifetime bans. Zillionaire takes Timber to CAS. How long do you reckon the hearing will last before the ban is overturned?

As others have observed, you are OK with yourself and honest people getting fucked. Going back to find the first cheat is a Waste of F***ing Time and Money. Cheater is probably two classes bought and sold down the road and still doing others dishonestly and you are right there saying it's alright, I had fun anyway? 

 

[Plumber]

Yes, I will still call that one design. Tolerances are an unavoidable part of building things in reality.

Exactly. Star is One design. Rules were written up back in the day of wooden hulls. Tolerances are inevitable. Who cares if your jib cleat or over or over there? Hull is measured within tolerances, boat meets weight, sails meet measurement, rig meets measurement...you've got a one design Star.