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If I remember correctly, at least one of those boats had a keel issue in SF last year. I would've thought 12 months was long enough to get it fixed ;-)
J70, cheating and pros
- Thread starter DarkHorse
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2savage
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I used to be a sail maker and was part of the 'win on Sunday sell on Monday' mentality. It was important that I did well when I raced because $$$ followed. Yes, cheating was pervasive, even back in the 1970's. But, there were some people who were just better sailors and they gravitated to the industry. I quit the dinghy racing circuit when a spotty faced 16 year old kid showed me that new talent was about to take over. I decided to quit while I was ahead.
That spotty faced kid's name was Ian Pinnel, who went on to become the owner of Pinnel and Bax sail makers in the UK and win 17 national and 4 world championships (and that was back in 2001). Knowing Ians abilities I recruited him to be my tactician for KWRW in 2001. Without him I would not have won my division. Ian is now a pro, but he was ALWAYS a better sailor than me.
Some people are just better.
That spotty faced kid's name was Ian Pinnel, who went on to become the owner of Pinnel and Bax sail makers in the UK and win 17 national and 4 world championships (and that was back in 2001). Knowing Ians abilities I recruited him to be my tactician for KWRW in 2001. Without him I would not have won my division. Ian is now a pro, but he was ALWAYS a better sailor than me.
Some people are just better.
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hmsmweasel
Super Anarchist
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what does that have to do with anything... some people are just better? JFC then why are those that are "better" (pros) purposefully tampering with the Delrons to get your keel lower in the box? so they can cheat the measurement and insure they have a better paycheck next week.
J T
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The actions of the International Class AND the Eyeties is perfect. Chuck the "OWNERS" from the championship, and oh, by the way, expect to hear from us regarding the unsportsmanlike conduct, sooner than later.
Any "Pros" involved will find the effects then, and possibly, the back end of this current paycheck. If a "Pro" have anything to do with actual cheating, it will come out in the wash.
Any "Pros" involved will find the effects then, and possibly, the back end of this current paycheck. If a "Pro" have anything to do with actual cheating, it will come out in the wash.
Cal20sailor
Super Anarchist
tinga
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Now that is a great story. Not sure what le fuck it has to do with J70s measurement issues, but a great story nonetheless.
- Thread starter
- #27
When the owners stand up and tell all about who came up with and who did the illegal work, and they ALL get named and chucked by ISAF will we start to see some improvement - until then, expect to see an ongoing reduction in class racing, especially in the corinthian ranks. There are tens of thousands of sailors that follow the letter and intent of the rules (you don't put your engine in gear, you don't use over sized sails, etc.) - the numbers of Italians are inflated since its in Italy (unless everyone else knows how to get around the measurements). Greenwald clearly cheated twice - and yet he still was out sailing the next week - he just had the money to change boats.
fI the pros on the disqualified boats took a rule 69 hit for it, then they will ensure their boats are legal ( and no I don't buy that one of the three pros on the boat doesn't know whats going on- the owners are not allowed to make changes like that without 'permission'). If the pros really didn't know what was going on and got caught in the muck, then they can sue the offending owner for lost wages for the year. Imagine how this crap would get cleaned up!!
(they give suspensions for a little pot use but clear out and out cheating is hit by a simple withdrawal? - do they get their entry fees back?)
fI the pros on the disqualified boats took a rule 69 hit for it, then they will ensure their boats are legal ( and no I don't buy that one of the three pros on the boat doesn't know whats going on- the owners are not allowed to make changes like that without 'permission'). If the pros really didn't know what was going on and got caught in the muck, then they can sue the offending owner for lost wages for the year. Imagine how this crap would get cleaned up!!
(they give suspensions for a little pot use but clear out and out cheating is hit by a simple withdrawal? - do they get their entry fees back?)
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Lumpydog
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bloodshot
Super Anarchist
Gouvernail
Lottsa people don’t know I’m famous
Quite a few J-70s have passed through my shop.
For me it is just like it was 40 years ago with J-24s. I have always read the rules before touching the boats.
As a fellow who loves to race one design sailboats I love to make my competitors boat just as fast as I am allowed to make my own boat. Throughout the 1980s I had the privilege to race in fifty to sixty boat fleet's of J-24s where every one of the top fifteen finishers had keels shaped in my shop by me to be as exactly alike as my skills could produce. No boat won because it had a special keel and none lost because its keel wasn't as good.
Re-focusing on the J-70:
i have told every owner, "I can fix things to be as new and polish but I am not allowed to do anything that might give you an advantage over a stock boat. If I Fair your hull your boat will be illegal for racing and worthless."
There is a set of rules and those rules define the game. Nobody can play with you if you won't play by the same rules.
I am happy to see the J-70 class is doing its job.
I think the IYRU or whatever we call our world sailing government needs to ban EVERYBODY who was involved with this cheating ring and by so doing will enhance the quality of the game for years to come.
For me it is just like it was 40 years ago with J-24s. I have always read the rules before touching the boats.
As a fellow who loves to race one design sailboats I love to make my competitors boat just as fast as I am allowed to make my own boat. Throughout the 1980s I had the privilege to race in fifty to sixty boat fleet's of J-24s where every one of the top fifteen finishers had keels shaped in my shop by me to be as exactly alike as my skills could produce. No boat won because it had a special keel and none lost because its keel wasn't as good.
Re-focusing on the J-70:
i have told every owner, "I can fix things to be as new and polish but I am not allowed to do anything that might give you an advantage over a stock boat. If I Fair your hull your boat will be illegal for racing and worthless."
There is a set of rules and those rules define the game. Nobody can play with you if you won't play by the same rules.
I am happy to see the J-70 class is doing its job.
I think the IYRU or whatever we call our world sailing government needs to ban EVERYBODY who was involved with this cheating ring and by so doing will enhance the quality of the game for years to come.
jesposito
Super Anarchist
jesposito
Super Anarchist
Lumpydog
New member
"Those who were found with irregularities at the time of measurement clearly violated the Class Rules by giving themselves an illegal advantage over the fleet. Those early rules violations also may have influenced other owners."
I believe what this is referring to is the fact that other racers pulled out of the regatta before they were measured - but - after boats started getting picked off by the measurers. When you submit a boat to measurement with intent to compete, you are going down an irreversible path. If you are found to have knowingly violated a rule - you open yourself up to additional scrutiny by the sport. You're at a World-level event - you better know what you are doing and you better know your boat is compliant with the written rules... not what others have been getting away with before the technical committee caught up. There is a difference.
What competitors have been getting away with at past regattas and what the rules specify are two different things.
I believe what this is referring to is the fact that other racers pulled out of the regatta before they were measured - but - after boats started getting picked off by the measurers. When you submit a boat to measurement with intent to compete, you are going down an irreversible path. If you are found to have knowingly violated a rule - you open yourself up to additional scrutiny by the sport. You're at a World-level event - you better know what you are doing and you better know your boat is compliant with the written rules... not what others have been getting away with before the technical committee caught up. There is a difference.
What competitors have been getting away with at past regattas and what the rules specify are two different things.
I guess we will need to look at the list of late withdrawals to identify the rest of the guilty by association.
james crum
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Not sure about your assumption re: late withdrawals. I see sail and hull numbers listed on the notice, not competitor's names. Could be that the protested boats are no longer eligible, though the competitors are. May be that the boat can be replaced? Certainly prior to measurement... also could replace any/all parts prior to measurement.
...if it is known by the competitor that said boat/parts will not measure, would be a scramble to get boats/parts to the regatta site that will!
...if it is known by the competitor that said boat/parts will not measure, would be a scramble to get boats/parts to the regatta site that will!
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Car Ramrod
Anarchist
2savage
Member
No John, that was the year before. And that's why the thread 'Espo is a dick' is one of the longest running threads on this forum. Thanks for confirming it just one more time.
Team_GBR
Super Anarchist
Good job by the class. Cheating is cheating and it should always be stamped down. Now the finger pointing begins, but it is just as important not to blame the wrong people as it is to blame the right ones and I feel some of the comments above miss the mark.
First and foremost, the blame lies with the owner. Very few people of low intelligence get to own yachts like these. If you are going to buy a yacht and compete, you need to know the rules. If it were your business, you couldn't get away with saying 'I was too busy so i leave rules/laws to other people". The buck stops with the owner and I cannot believe that any of the owners involved do not know the rules. It might be a case of thinking that because others are doing it you need to as well, but to suggest an owner doesn't know a fairly simple set of rules is BS.
The next group who need to be pulled up are the ones doing the work on these boats. If you work on top class yachts fairing keels etc, you know the rules. It is that simple. To say you didn't know that fairing the keel and rehanging it was against class rules is not acceptable from these guys.
Then there are the pros and IMO, this is where it gets difficult. I accept that some pros act as boat captain and those pros are equally culpable as the owners and those who do the work. Then there are the hired guns at the back of the boat. Most of them fly in and out for the regatta and sail the boat as they find it. I really wonder if they are saying to the owners 'have you faired the keel" or similar. If they are involved with planning the whole campaign and that includes discussions on boat prep, they should be dealt with but i suspect that many at the back don't get that involved in that area, simply expecting the boat to be prepared spot on.
Let's be careful not to burn everybody, but make sure that those who are really responsible for what is cheating are dealt with accordingly.
First and foremost, the blame lies with the owner. Very few people of low intelligence get to own yachts like these. If you are going to buy a yacht and compete, you need to know the rules. If it were your business, you couldn't get away with saying 'I was too busy so i leave rules/laws to other people". The buck stops with the owner and I cannot believe that any of the owners involved do not know the rules. It might be a case of thinking that because others are doing it you need to as well, but to suggest an owner doesn't know a fairly simple set of rules is BS.
The next group who need to be pulled up are the ones doing the work on these boats. If you work on top class yachts fairing keels etc, you know the rules. It is that simple. To say you didn't know that fairing the keel and rehanging it was against class rules is not acceptable from these guys.
Then there are the pros and IMO, this is where it gets difficult. I accept that some pros act as boat captain and those pros are equally culpable as the owners and those who do the work. Then there are the hired guns at the back of the boat. Most of them fly in and out for the regatta and sail the boat as they find it. I really wonder if they are saying to the owners 'have you faired the keel" or similar. If they are involved with planning the whole campaign and that includes discussions on boat prep, they should be dealt with but i suspect that many at the back don't get that involved in that area, simply expecting the boat to be prepared spot on.
Let's be careful not to burn everybody, but make sure that those who are really responsible for what is cheating are dealt with accordingly.
james crum
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There is a distinction, cheating vs. out of measurement. You guys should put down the tiki torches. I believe the goal is to have a fair fleet.... not a lynching.
