If they could bring the boats into measurement compliance easily, I'm sure the measurers would have allowed them to do so. Do you understand who got flicked, and the position their family(ies) hold in the sport in Italy? The only way a couple of these boats get flicked is for flat out cheating because the repercussions of flicking a couple of these guys for just being a bit of compliance when it would be easy to remedy would just never happen.
J70, cheating and pros
- Thread starter DarkHorse
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Well since the only way to be out of measurement on standardized keels is by cheating (since NOTHING can be done to the keels except polishing.I read the class rules..), I think your point is moot. This is not a case of slight overage of a sail measurement - this is clearly overt actions to gain unfair advantage by specific and illegal means.
This class has a history of this, just as there are a few other classes in the same size that have had like issues. Those classes have been all but destroyed by this type of activity - finally a class had stood up and said 'no more' - and now its up to the national authorities to take the lead on cleaning this up. Either that or jsut let the rest of the class members vote if they are willing to let each of these specifically identified 'teams' to ever sail again - after all, what else have they gotten away with that hasn't been caught (and maybe the boats should be permanently banned as well?)
This class has a history of this, just as there are a few other classes in the same size that have had like issues. Those classes have been all but destroyed by this type of activity - finally a class had stood up and said 'no more' - and now its up to the national authorities to take the lead on cleaning this up. Either that or jsut let the rest of the class members vote if they are willing to let each of these specifically identified 'teams' to ever sail again - after all, what else have they gotten away with that hasn't been caught (and maybe the boats should be permanently banned as well?)
james crum
New member
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ML Jr. is listed as a competitor, w/o hull no. currently...
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GlitterBomb
New member
Obviously the brown shirts got hacked by the russians
bpm57
Super Anarchist
I can't seem to find a template in the rules for a definition of a "legal" j/70 keel?
frostbit
Anarchist
It is a mess. The boats are not built with enough quality control so as to be truly identical. There are NO templates to adjust the boat to those standards. Some boats have been taking advantage of that opening. It accelerated massively in the past 12 months as there was almost zero enforcement and people were getting tired of seeing their competition jump to the top of the Fleet after a brief hiatus at the local optimizer shed. It's made the boats much more expensive to own, and owners who want to follow the rules are left left in the dust. Next question will be how to in-optimize those boats. There are so many' particularly at the top of the Fleet. Are they out forever?
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Lumpydog
New member
“With the benefit of past experience and recognizing the need to maintain the strictest One-Design standards, the current Council has invested in two new measurers with the knowledge and tools necessary to ensure the strictest compliance with Class Rules.”
Who are the two new measurers? What are the tools? My guess is some level of keel templates/measurement tools exist now - that measure thickness (thinness) at key points and also keel depth at rest. Just because it couldn't be measured/checked in the past doesn't mean it can't be measured for compliance in the future.
What the tech committee are not checking now - can be checked and enforced at any time. If you modified something that the rules did not say you may modify - then you are out of compliance. The technical committee learns and adjusts - you can expect more ways to cheat and more ways to get caught. Right?
I think its great that the class is doing this - keep at it.
THESE RULES ARE CLOSED CLASS RULES WHERE IF IT DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT YOU “MAY” THEN YOU “SHALL NOT.”
Who are the two new measurers? What are the tools? My guess is some level of keel templates/measurement tools exist now - that measure thickness (thinness) at key points and also keel depth at rest. Just because it couldn't be measured/checked in the past doesn't mean it can't be measured for compliance in the future.
What the tech committee are not checking now - can be checked and enforced at any time. If you modified something that the rules did not say you may modify - then you are out of compliance. The technical committee learns and adjusts - you can expect more ways to cheat and more ways to get caught. Right?
I think its great that the class is doing this - keep at it.
THESE RULES ARE CLOSED CLASS RULES WHERE IF IT DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT YOU “MAY” THEN YOU “SHALL NOT.”
fucket
Anarchist
I don't see what help templates would be. If you have two boats with identical hulls and foils, one can be legal because it came out of the factory that way and the other illegal because it was modified to be that way. Some classes have rules that allow modifications to some things as long as the results are within a specified tolerance; the J/70 fleet does not appear to be one of those classes.
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silent bob
Super Anarchist
All J-70's are One Design......
Some are just more One Design than the rest!
Some are just more One Design than the rest!
teleboxAUT118
Member
Is it just me, or this happening more in Italy than elsewhere? I remember Italian teams shaping keels in the Melges 24 (with Nicola Celon even loosing a keel in a windy North German European Championship back in 2007), the recent Scugnizza DSQ in the 2016 ORC Europeans in Greece, the rule bending in the 2016 ORC Sportboat Europeans in Italy to allow non sportboats to the fleet, and now this in Porto Cervo... Not that I am full with prejudices (actually I like Italy), but this is a bit more than just co-incidence...
Team_GBR
Super Anarchist
I can't believe some of you. Cheating is cheating. It's like pregnancy. It is absolute. If the rules say you cannot modify or fair the keel, it doesn't matter why you do it. If you do it you are cheating. Worse, the only reason to do it is to improve the performance of the boat.
There really is no excuse and it doesn't matter how big a difference you might think it makes, it is straight out cheating. All the people responsible need to be held to account.
There really is no excuse and it doesn't matter how big a difference you might think it makes, it is straight out cheating. All the people responsible need to be held to account.
chuso007
Super Anarchist
It's great that SA will be there, I have a lot of friends from Vigo heading there. I'll be following the race with interest...
Tangonauta
New member
As apparently is very important to underline name and NATIONALITIES of the "evil pros" behind the scene, I think it will be a pitty to forget to list the tactician of the italian event host(!) Vertigo.........the olympic medalist Charlie McKee.........from USA............We believe that hell may have actually frozen over a few hours ago.
We’re not sure how else to explain the fact that of the seven teams just thrown out of the J/70 World Championship for measurement violations – in Italy – five are Italian! Organizers even have the support of the J/70 Italian Class despite the stature of the excluded owners, which includes the current Alcatel J/70 Cup champion and several top teams. It’s a sign that the folks running the J/70 are taking their little boat as seriously as they have long needed to, given how prominent and huge the class has become since their first Worlds barely 3 years ago.
As past competitors in the Class, we’re not surprised to see the hammer finally drop on some of the over-the-top mods that have been creeping in since the get go, but we are definitely surprised and quite impressed to see it happen in a place that’s notorious for ‘turbo” Italian one-design entries that get away with it (anyone remember the Melges 24 bulb with chines or the Farr 40 that floated 2″ high of her lines? We do). We’re also not saying that the DSQ’d boats are full of outright cheaters rather than opportunists taking advantage of Class Measurement guidelines and tools that were less than precise, but the hammer doesn’t care what the nail looks like, as long as it is a nail. Those rules and tools have now been tightened up, which should mean fairer racing for everyone in this huge fleet. Bravo, J/70 Class admins and measurers, and bravo, Italia!
Anyway, the official notice is on your left. From Italy, the DSQ’d boats are Achille Onorato’s Mascalzone Latino Jr (Francesco Bruni, tactician), Allesandro Molla’s Viva (Nicollo Bianchi, tactician), Marco Salvi’s Vertigo (from Porto Cervo, the event host!), Claudio Dutto’s Asante Sana, prior Worlds podium finisher Carlo Alberini’s Calvi Network(Branco Brcin, tactician), Mauro Mocchegiani’s Rush Diletta (Matteo Ivaldi, tactician), and the Alex Semenov’s Russian-owned New Territories (tactics by Pottuguese J/80 and SB20 World Champion Hugo Rocha). We’re not sure whether this makes those pros more marketable or less marketable, but you might want to double check their work the next time they say ‘it’s legal, don’t worry’ before your big regatta!
Is this another case of pro sailors ruining a class, or does this kind of thing only happen when Classes slack on their measurement controls? And is the J/70 Class’s action signs of great governance to come? We’ll find out when SA brings our coverage to the J/70 Worlds on Wednesday (if the Mistral has shut down by then, that is!) . Until then, there’s of course a thread…
Please rectify...if we care about clear news...
Thanks
Annapolis 105er
Member
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I am at the event (although not racing) and saw the photos and talked with some of the poobahs last night. It's definitely not a question of production tolerances, the mods (if not done by the same shop) all have the same design philosophy. And the list is not the full list of boats that were caught, it's just the list of those who chose to fight the measurers. Other boats just packed up and left quietly. The national and international class organizations, administrators and measurers are working really hard to do the right thing, it's great to see them getting some credit for doing so.
FP: "Is this another case of pro sailors ruining a class, or does this kind of thing only happen when Classes slack on their measurement controls? And is the J/70 Class’s action signs of great governance to come? We’ll find out when SA brings our coverage to the J/70 Worlds on Wednesday..."
Could you be more of a drama queen, Alan?
Could you be more of a drama queen, Alan?
Speedwatch
Member
Cunningham Eye
New member
Seems like this class has gone the way of the J24's back in the 80's & 90's. The Etchells had th same issues with keels positioned oddly in the 90's.
As the sun rose and set on the Jays on the handstand at the 1988 Worlds at Royal Sydney YS you could see through some of the hullls above the waterline better than others while certain boats were craned in with people on board to hide the waterline attitude some of the boats had. Everyone knew but it's the application of rules that matter s and it's good to see this happening anywhere in sailing.
As the sun rose and set on the Jays on the handstand at the 1988 Worlds at Royal Sydney YS you could see through some of the hullls above the waterline better than others while certain boats were craned in with people on board to hide the waterline attitude some of the boats had. Everyone knew but it's the application of rules that matter s and it's good to see this happening anywhere in sailing.
