J70, cheating and pros

[freddy]

Talked to about a dozen people today off the record about the measurement stuff, including two of the boats which were refused entry under 76 and several coaches and class officials.

There is a lot of shit flying around that is obscuring the matter thanks to Vincenzo's letter (which, properly translated, is one of the funniest bits of PR I've ever seen in sailing) and the longtime animosity between Onorato and the YCCS.  Regardless of that narrative (where they claim the rejection comes on a personal basis from the Club), the truth is much more simple.

The keels are not J/70 keels, they are significantly wider at the bottom than the molds they are supposed to have come out of.  They also have lost most of the round 'belly' that extended down from the bottom of the bulb.  It's not fairing, it's not repairing, it's straight up shape-changing.

Most or all of the boats were worked on by the same guy in Riva Del Garda.  He's well known (though I only know him by his nickname, which I remember as Fafo) for years for high quality work on the Melges as well as Finns and other olympic boats.

In my mind, there's no way this guy does this level of work without talking to at least someone in charge on the teams. 

Most of the effected boats' responses was 'but we've been measured before and we passed', which is not a response.  Most of the owners 'didn't know anything about it', which is not relevant at all.

Instead of the Class telling the bad boats to fix the problem - which we've all unfortunately become used to in one-design classes - they told them to go home.  And I like it.

If true, and sounds like it could well be, then this is even worse than first thought. Changing the shape with a bit of fairing is one thing - buying an illegal keel from a banned 3rd party is very underhand and very deliberate.....

Should be some sort of ban and sanction for owner and all crew from the effected boats - they will all deny any part of it, but that's in their nature. So ban them all for 6 mths from all yachting....And encourage whistleblowers with reduced bans - that way the truth can be uncovered.....

And the boatbilder who did this work should also be hauled over the coals.....he knew full well it is illegal, and he makes his money from our sport.....

 

[JimC]

Imaginary conversation...

> I want the keel done the same way as xxx

>> OK, there you are that will be n euros

> the Jury said its illegal at the worlds

>> Never said it wasn't. You said same as xxx

> Did xxx ask for an illegal keel?

>> xxx only races under measurement handicaps, its not illegal in that situation

> you never said it was illegal for one design events

>> you never asked or specified. Didn't you know?

 

[rgeek]

The builder who did the work should be added to the measurement team for the next event

 

[schooner27]

A second side to the story. Google translate will do the job adequately. 

 

[roca]

The answer by Mr. Recchi is (obviously and easly) very convincing, adressing all points.

 VO lost another chance to STFU, he will now be remembered as the main cheater in this controversy...

sometimes "silence is golden"

 

[lostmydetailsagain]

Walked through the yard when measurement was in progress. First event where templates were available (or that's what it sounded like) for measurers.

Interesting point: some boats (measurers knew which boats had been to the same yard) were checked even before going into proper measurement. Interestingly, I also witnessed one or two boats who had been to the same yard for prep where templates showed no issue (to the point the measurers took photos for illustration purposes). And some boats looked horrendous because owners were afraid to go beyond the allowed repair clause...

Some clear challenges for this class with two factories, two rig suppliers and over 1000 hull numbers issued. If templates were to be made available, inclining, rig stiffness and similar other measurements would need to be included as well and cost of competition would skyrocket. Now the challenge is to have a few more measurers (with templates) available at other major events without templates making their way to the yards.

 

[chuso007]

Tell me about them and I'll get some interviews

I just saw one of your videos walking by some of them, ask for Ramón Ojea, he's organising the next J/70 Europeans in Vigo in  2018, he's the skipper of Pazo de Cea, Gonzalo Araujo and him are the real class promoters in Spain.

Both Mar Natura boats have interesting people on board (Luis Bugallo from the Spanish Youth America´s Cup Team Impulse and Nico Rodriguez, future (hopefully) 470 Olimpian, You have Laureano Wizner (America's Cup veteran) on board PettitePalace Hoteles, Gonzalo Araujo  on Sailway...

EDIT: Ramón is not exactly the organiser of the European Championship, but he's one of them... It will be hosted by the Real Club Náutico de Vigo.

 

[chuso007]

It seems the problem is that variation in production means some boats conforming to the class rules (i.e. no modifications) are faster than others conforming to the class rules.

That would be a problem originating with the manufacturer. To fix that by allowing post production optimization of correction seems entirely the wrong approach.

Instead of building a cheap boat that requires expensive post production work why not build a boat that is consistent.

They may be built cheap, but they're certainly not sold cheap..

 

[fucket]

Walked through the yard when measurement was in progress. First event where templates were available (or that's what it sounded like) for measurers.

Interesting point: some boats (measurers knew which boats had been to the same yard) were checked even before going into proper measurement. Interestingly, I also witnessed one or two boats who had been to the same yard for prep where templates showed no issue (to the point the measurers took photos for illustration purposes). And some boats looked horrendous because owners were afraid to go beyond the allowed repair clause...

Some clear challenges for this class with two factories, two rig suppliers and over 1000 hull numbers issued. If templates were to be made available, inclining, rig stiffness and similar other measurements would need to be included as well and cost of competition would skyrocket. Now the challenge is to have a few more measurers (with templates) available at other major events without templates making their way to the yards.

Again, I have no idea what templates can prove. If the keel doesn't fit the template, isn't "it came like that from the factory" a pretty solid defense?

It seems to me that you would be looking for evidence of work being done, like fairing compound on a part that came right out of a mold. Again, though, wouldn't "there was print-through evident when received from the factory" be a pretty good defense there?

I, frankly, don't see how the class rules as they currently exist are sustainable.

 

[fastyacht]

" I, frankly, don't see how the class rules as they currently exist are sustainable. "

Me neither.

 

[longy]

Moonduster postulates that the root cause here is the manufacturer. In the case of a J/70, how many builders are out there? Don't these things come off the factory floor conforming to the class rules? If not, why not?

Since  (deliberately) there have been no real measurement points/templates, any boat as is, no changes, straight from builder is legal. So some boats will be better than others, with no legal way to modify them. J boats have a long history of this, all the way back to the 24's, where keels could be an inch different fore-aft, and also different in weight and foil shape.. 105's varied wildly in weight - freeboard measurements were imposed by class. OOOPs - new molds had 1/4 - 1/2" less freeboard than old molds. Finally all boats must be actually weighed by load cells

 

[Cal20sailor]

So some boats will be better than others, with no legal way to modify them. 

So one legal solution for a very deep pockets owner in the class would be to buy 10 boats, measure each one, and race the pick of the litter?

 

[longy]

At the moment, yes.

 

[flyhigh]

I don’t know why there is such a fuss about this.  The J/70 class is about to die; in a matter of a few years, it will be populated by club hacks and people will be bitching about it’s PHRF rating.  Maybe you didn’t see this, but I received this press release just today.  Really exciting stuff and I’m stoked to move on from the pokey J/70.

__________

September 12, 2017; Newport, RI:  The answer to racing sailor’s dreams is about to start production!  Presenting the brand new, totally unique, J/BravoSierra one-design speedster! 

After introducing the J/105 in 1991, and turning the sailing world upside down by claiming to be the first manufacturer to offer an asymmetrical spinnaker on a retracting J/sprit, and by referring to the boat in sophisticated Euro metric numbers instead of boring imperial feet, the J/marketing team now presents its latest naming scheme, using letters instead of numbers!  This revolutionary J/branding totally disguises the fact that we just enlarged our last boat on the photocopier at 107%.  And because we are going to use the word “speedster” in every press release and in every paragraph, it’s definitely going to be faster.

The new J/BS speedster redefines sailboat racing and shared adventure with friends and paid crew.  It fulfills the growing need to simplify payroll and reconnect with those you really can afford to sail with.  Strict class crew limits will ensure that no more than four crew are needed, unless there are five, and no more than three can be paid, with the other two or one able to be paid only if certain criteria, carefully enforced, are met.  And in an exciting break from tradition, owners need only sit ashore and write checks: no owner-driver rules to prevent this speedster from reaching it’s mediocre performance potential!

Imagine a fleet of mundane speedsters sprinting along, with owners enjoying a “dream circuit” of events that tie into regional “classic” races that everyone aspires to buy trophies for.  The pros will be salivating in their black Zhik jackets at the prospect of fleecing a new breed of owners.

Indeed, each new J/BS comes complete with your choice of crew gear in trendy all black, with lime green accents, or with neon yellow accents.  Both colorways will feature absurdly large J/logos, embroidered and screened in many places.  In another industry first, instead of being fast and light, the boat will be heavy but will look fast: instead of design development or modern materials, each J/BS will leave the factory with a stock keel and rudder painted orange!  This speedster will turn heads on the trailer!

Now is the time for the best marketed and most expensive per volume sailboat ever made!  The J/BS speedster – the latest one-design class meant to eviscerate the current one-design class (whatever that was).  Pure J/BS magic!
 

View attachment 245396

Too funny. Today's press release from Melges is almost identical;-)

https://www.melges.com/?p=news&id=3176

 

[fastyacht]

So one legal solution for a very deep pockets owner in the class would be to buy 10 boats, measure each one, and race the pick of the litter?

That's what laser olympians do...

 

[DarkHorse]

Let be clear - this is NOT slight fairing do to poor workmanship - this is PURE CHEATING in terms of completely differently shaped foils:

"The keels are not J/70 keels, they are significantly wider at the bottom than the molds they are supposed to have come out of.  They also have lost most of the round 'belly' that extended down from the bottom of the bulb.  It's not fairing, it's not repairing, it's straight up shape-changing."

The other 165 boats are clearly all within the rules -these guys are no where near the letter nor the INTENT of the rules. Might as well have a little electric engine and a hidden prop to give them the same advantage. Would that be okay with you all? the prop was just added as part of the 'fairing! and no one proteseted our prop before when we won so it must be okay.  I wonder if they have all had keel shrouds like the AC boats did!

 

[longy]

TECHNICALLY, EVEN 'SLIGHT' FAIRING IS ILLEGAL.

 

[Lono]

it's easier to ask for forgivness than for permission............

Easier to get too...

 

[fastyacht]

Let be clear - this is NOT slight fairing do to poor workmanship - this is PURE CHEATING in terms of completely differently shaped foils:

"The keels are not J/70 keels, they are significantly wider at the bottom than the molds they are supposed to have come out of.  They also have lost most of the round 'belly' that extended down from the bottom of the bulb.  It's not fairing, it's not repairing, it's straight up shape-changing."

The other 165 boats are clearly all within the rules -these guys are no where near the letter nor the INTENT of the rules. Might as well have a little electric engine and a hidden prop to give them the same advantage. Would that be okay with you all? the prop was just added as part of the 'fairing! and no one proteseted our prop before when we won so it must be okay.  I wonder if they have all had keel shrouds like the AC boats did!

Two parallel problems are going on.
1. Cheating.
2. A "one design" class which is not and cannot be one design (because there is nothing an owner can do to correct an out of spec boat--there are no public specs!).

Note that there is a relationship between these two problems. And it is obvious and it has been pointed out very clearly by multiple people above. Basically anyone I put a ^ below.

Blatant cheating --> that seems to be getting taken care of.
Problems going forward with out of spec is not. Unless you find a way to get the J70 class to have teeth and ownership of the technical dimensions.
Look at any real one dsign (505, GP14, Star,  whatever) and you will see drawings, offsets, measurement stations, tolerances and tight language controlling shape between stations.
This is not rocket science but it needs to be done correctly,

 

[10thTonner]

They can't standardize a fucking wedge?