J70, cheating and pros

[rgeek]

Come off it. The GP14 has super wide tolerances in order to allow for home build using 4x8 sheets of ply by a dad and son using 1970s techniques! Same with most of the classes in the UK from that era ... most of which don't actually refer to them selves as one design. The more serious guys head down to Devon and ask Morrison to create something at one end or the other of the tolerances. Just read the write up from the last Merlin Rocket nationals for an idea of the carry on that goes on with very small changes each year or so presented as brand new boats. The 505 is another example. Even the Wayfairer guys go at it FFS.

Once you hit GPR construction the ones that have their own molds or a single builder use exactly the kind of rule that the J/70s are using.

Exposed to a high level of competition the cost goes through the roof any way you shake it. Take the money spent on the JK Stars by the UK/IRL guys for the Olympics. Or Rita or their 470s. Or the effort gone into on centreboard twist for the 470 by the Australians.

Controlling costs in a class is 100% about controlling the aspirations of the guys at the front of the fleet, who set the tone for everyone else.

 

[sailman]

GP14 and 5o5 are development classes.  Boats like the Optimist and Penguin can still be home built and raced in class.  

As has been said, just come up with drawings with measurements, tolerances and this goes away.  If there are differences between build series then call it out.  It's not rocket science.

 

[longy]

Any class with restricted builders quickly determines who makes the best class legal boats. J-24's began with learning that east coast (TPI) hulls were better than west coat hulls. Later the Australian hulls by Bashford became the top hulls, as he built his hulls to the 'best' measurements. So much better that anyone selling a Bash boat will proudly proclaim the builder.

  Early J-105's were hand laid hulls, later hulls are infusion molded. The early hulls were about 700 - 800 lbs lighter in hull weight, so were very sought after, until the class began actually weighing the boats. Technically, the early boats are still better, less weight in the ends as lead was mostly added in the middle of the boat.

   Laser buyers would inspect & weigh a lot of hulls before buying, & bend test upper sections for stiffness also.

 

[rgeek]

It doesn't go away though.

It'll accelerate as people have boats almost rebuilt from the ground up to push the tolerances into what ever corner they feel will maximise performance and everyone will feel they have to spend to compete or don't have access to the knowledge required to get on the same page.

Go to measurement stations etc. and people will strip the boats back to glass and reshape them.

 

[Presuming Ed]

 

[Presuming Ed]

 

[ojfd]

9 minutes ago, Presuming Ed said:

 

[bpm57]

That's what laser olympians do...

lasers cost alot less

 

[bpm57]

Interesting point: some boats (measurers knew which boats had been to the same yard) were checked even before going into proper measurement. Interestingly, I also witnessed one or two boats who had been to the same yard for prep where templates showed no issue (to the point the measurers took photos for illustration purposes). And some boats looked horrendous because owners were afraid to go beyond the allowed repair clause...

Well, there might be some amusement in the fact that fitting the templates to well is probably a sign of cheating...

 

[ojfd]

Actually, this video by Segelreporter is more interesting

 

[fucket]

It doesn't go away though.

It'll accelerate as people have boats almost rebuilt from the ground up to push the tolerances into what ever corner they feel will maximise performance and everyone will feel they have to spend to compete or don't have access to the knowledge required to get on the same page.

Go to measurement stations etc. and people will strip the boats back to glass and reshape them.

IMHO a much more manageable set of problems to have than the current situation.

 

[fastyacht]

GP14 and 5o5 are development classes.  Boats like the Optimist and Penguin can still be home built and raced in class.  

As has been said, just come up with drawings with measurements, tolerances and this goes away.  If there are differences between build series then call it out.  It's not rocket science.

Huh?

Sailman! I raced the GP14. It is a *one design* designed by Jack Holt.
The 505 is not a "development class" either. It is a one design with more liberal allowances on rigging and some other details.
In the 505 the following are strictly controlled.
Hull shape. All up weight. Sail area and shape. mast dimensions. Centerboard depth below hull. . Mast position. Centerboardd trunk maximum dimensions. Right down to the half-round beads along the keel. Yes you can shape the blades. You can rotate the mast, change the rigging, etc. But it is not a development class. Not a 14 or a canoe where you have a set of mazimums and minimums and you are free to draw any shape in that broad box.

As for the Optimist, no, actually you cannot home build them any longer. Look that one up. The fiberglass builders saw to it that that would never be practical ever again.

As for "wide tolerances" so what? The principle at play is what is important. The rules are clear. The solutions are clear. You sail a GP14 you know what you can do. You buy a J70 you have no idea what you can do. "Don't touch anything" is not an answer.


Yes, drawings, tolerances which is what I said. But apparently there is no power t odo so because of the contracts?

You can craft an effective set of rules--but it takes actually paying attention to the pitfalls learned in other classes.

 

[F18 Sailor]

Check the Tornado Class Rules. If you want this sort of sh$t to stop, that is the level of measurement scrutiny that must take place. It is also why only one builder in that class really succeeded at the Olympic level, because they flat out built the best boat using the best materials and best construction method available at the time. The premium charged from the factory was worth it to those competing at the level where swapping keels would be a common place event.

The J/70 class should have, some 2 years ago, said okay, we understand the boats aren't all the same, we are cutting all new tooling held to +/- 0.005" tolerance (i.e AC50 level tolerances) and all new boats will come from this tooling, they will cost a bit more but they won't require work from the factory to get them 'fair or make the keel 'better'. This wasn't done so now templates must be supplied, at least a couple sets per continent, to fix the boats that were 'illegally modified' to a rule that doesn't exist etc. How can you bring a keel back to class legal fair after legitimate damage if there are no templates to go from? One is at best left working from templates pulled from another J/70 but how do you know if that boat is legal if its keel, hull etc. has never been measured?

Also, this whole situation proves the fallacy of pure one design classes and why, long term and in classes that are not Olympic, box rule classes make a lot more sense. It is far easier to check boats for compliance with weight, maximum draft, rig dimensions, sail area and a couple of hull checks than busting out full measurement templates for the whole boat.

 

[JimC]

It doesn't go away though.

Yep, there are some astonishingly naive posts on this thread for those who've studied something of the history of measurement/compliance issues.

Its interesting that one of the Mascalzone boats passed measurement and the other one didn't. Makes me wonder if there's an element of cockup in this sorry tale. 

 

[fastyacht]

lasers cost alot less

Yes that is the point. If you are buying a $55000 boat it is unreasonable to expect people to buy 10 of them to be competitive! Some way to make all new boats equally competitive is the goal.

 

[rgeek]

Yep, there are some astonishingly naive posts on this thread for those who've studied something of the history of measurement/compliance issues.

Its interesting that one of the Mascalzone boats passed measurement and the other one didn't. Makes me wonder if there's an element of cockup in this sorry tale. 

2 boats passed measurement and 1 initially didn't but was put into order with the keel of a 4th.

 

[rgeek]

Yes that is the point. If you are buying a $55000 boat it is unreasonable to expect people to buy 10 of them to be competitive! Some way to make all new boats equally competitive is the goal.

Oh god no. That's the least of it.

Even when a fleet is 10+ years old with second hand values under 10k some point someone will enter 2 boats an event and pay for a crew for the second boat who do nothing except sail out to the course, do a 2 boat tune up and then DNS.

Or when a design is 50 years old there will still be a premium for old boats in specific sail number ranges.

Or people will buy 2nd and 3rd boats so that they can buy more sails than regulation.

Or how about dropping over 1 million US on a single campaign including a near year long on site sail development program.

(these are not all j/70 examples, just boats I the same size range)

 

[DaveK]

Is this the official J70 worlds thread? If so, kinda sad!

 

[AndreasE]

Early J-105's were hand laid hulls, later hulls are infusion molded. The early hulls were about 700 - 800 lbs lighter in hull weight, so were very sought after, until the class began actually weighing the boats. Technically, the early boats are still better, less weight in the ends as lead was mostly added in the middle of the boat.

If you are in a competitive J/105 fleet, everyone knows who has a pre-scrimp boat... and not just from hull#

 

[Team_GBR]

FFS! We get the fact that there is an issue of consistency in the boats, but the way that is being discussed and the way people are referring to other classes is a real distraction from the facts. These guys were cheating. They deliberately reprofiled their keels to a shape that was never intended, even if all the boats were built exactly the same. We could have some sympathy if what they had done was to shape the keels to be the same as everybody else but that did not happen. They spent money to optimise the shape of the keel.

Forget everything else. These guys cheated by breaking a class rule. They deliberately reprofiled the keels to make the boats faster. Note the word "reprofiled". This is not fairing up the keels. It is changing the shape. If you think that having more consistency in the building of the boats would change that behaviour, you are being very naive. 

While the class has done the right thing, we now have to hope that higher authority takes action, but seeing who it is, I doubt it. Deliberate cheating needs further action because just missing a regatta is not sufficient a penalty.