Jib Top for Cruising in the PNW?

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
6,495
996
San Diego
TL;DR: I'm wondering what the feasibility/use case is for a Jib Top on my C&C 29mk2 for Cruising in the PNW. What are your thoughts on the performance of a Jib-top over the barberhauled Genoa? Is it worth the extra effort of potential sail changes single-handed?

I'm primarily cruising from Vancouver to the Gulf Islands and back and I find myself close/beam reaching most of the time while crossing the Strait of Georgia. Apparent wind angles typically range from beam on to ~10 degrees off close hauled on these crossings depending on where I'm headed and wind strength.

I'm finding I've got a pretty big gap between my brand new 135% Genoa barberhauled outside the lifelines and my Asymmetric Spinnaker which came with the boat which has a wire luff and seems to have a cut suitable for closer wind angles. In ~3-8kts I can carry the A-sail at about 85 degrees true but above that I have to bear away or go back to white sails.

I've been thinking it might be worth getting my old 135% Genoa re-cut as a jib top to fill in this gap. A lot of the time I won't beat out of English Bay or Trincomali channel due to time constraints with tides but I prefer to sail across the strait. This means I'm not really concerned about the lack of close hauled performance and I'm not super worried about changing the headsail once in the gulf islands where I'm likely to be beating to the next anchorage. I'm typically taking my headsails down while at anchor rather than leaving them furled with my UV cover hoisted.
Wide range of responses here, but no one is considering your present situation/boat/sail plan. There is probably a big jump in sail area between your asso & your 135 genoa. This is the first thing to consider -actual sail size. Then look at wind angles you want to fly this sail in. Then talk to a sailmaker. A Jibtop of the same overlap will only be slightly faster than your genoa - a little better shape, & sail area up higher (for same overlap). What is overlap/sail area of the asso?

 So until you give us dimensions of asso, I think there are two choices: replace 135 with a 150 high clewed sail or consider a free flying jibtop(?) Code 0 (?) depending on how close winded you need it to go. Set this on a bottom up furler forward of headstay, 2 x 1 halyard.

 

bgytr

Super Anarchist
4,900
552
Old School double-head rigs back when lots of boats View attachment 358042  raced with them.

View attachment 358040
Ya Bruce King was big on double head rigs.  I raced on an Ericson 37 back in the day.  Double head rig was slow except in a narrow wind range and angle of about 12 to 16 true and 55 to 70 ish true wind angle.  Switched to a standard genoa after one season, was faster upwind in all wind speeds.

Jib top probably ain't worth it for your application.  Others have said they are usually sails that are for close reaching in breeze on a distance ocean race so waves don't blow out the foot of a standard genoa.  There are adaptations to this that work, if your headsail is adaptable, you can have another sheet ring some distance up the leech to put the sheet attachment higher.  Also back in the day, some headsails had a foot loop sewn in where you could put a halyard to hoist the foot up outta the water.  Worked ok too as long as you had the foot up high enough.

Sounds like the range of wind you are looking to fill is getting more punch in softer breeze close reach.  A recut 135% is not gonna do that.  You need more sail area, like a 150% 

 

SailRacer

Super Anarchist
3,522
87
I have an idea, do not touch your standing inventory, you might need it.

Go on line and look for a USED JT for your boat. Compare it against an outboard lead for your 135%. You might like one over the other.

Sail Safe!

 

bgytr

Super Anarchist
4,900
552
The other advantage of a good smallish jibtop is it can be an excellent heavy air downwind sail when you have to get out of Dodge in a hurry. A couple of reefs in the main, jibtop on the pole and you're good to go.

Itsa winch farm!

 

Crash

Super Anarchist
5,014
965
SoCal
I have an idea, do not touch your standing inventory, you might need it.

Go on line and look for a USED JT for your boat. Compare it against an outboard lead for your 135%. You might like one over the other.

Sail Safe!
Great idea, but how many C&C 29 Mk IIs do you think have had a JT even made for them?   Maybe there is some more modern race boat with similar rig dimensions?

 

oldskool

Super Anarchist
Isn't the J dimension on that boat pretty big?  Recutting an old 135, with heavy forward draft, may do just the trick.  Still a bunch of sail area forward.  Likely wouldn't be a true JT, but may be worth it.

 

Tyler Durden

Super Anarchist
1,116
1
29 mkii lacks both form stability and rig size, so first step in this process is to adjust your expectations, there is a reason there are about 3 of these in the whole province.

Second step is to recognize that a dollar spent below waterline is worth 10 dollars in sails, so make sure you have a folding prop and then budget $500/year for a diver to clean the bottom, in Vancouver that will get your boat done every second month.  Combination of these two is worth an hour on a typical crossing of Georgia Strait in a 29 footer.

Final item, more sail = more power.  A 135 genoa beats that same genoa cut down with a high clew, which typically reduces the sail to a 125 or so (measure the new LP).  The real solution here should be a 155 genoa for that boat.  If you then need still more oomph, the standard sized asym kites from North Cruising Direct are good in this application.

 

climenuts

Anarchist
689
275
PNW
Have your sailmaker sew an upper clew onto your standard cruising Genoa so you can swap back and forth, if it matters enough to you. There will be some flapping but you're cruising. 
I really don't want any flapping on my brand new Genoa...

 

climenuts

Anarchist
689
275
PNW
I end up sheeted in too far for a JT coming home from Silva Bay about 60% of the time.

Also, cutting the bottom off your sail just makes the sail smaller, a real JT has the same area as your Genoa and would typically have a fuller shape than an all-purpose Genoa.  What you are talking about is more of a Yankee jib.
I can picture in lighter airs with more waterline the wind angle would be too far forward. With a hull speed of 6.3kts the apparent wind angle is a bit more forgiving for me in my experience.

 

climenuts

Anarchist
689
275
PNW
Have you spoken to a good sailmaker/designer about it? If not, drop me a PM and I'll send you one that I'd trust to give you good advice.
I've spoken to North who I've bought a new Main, 135% Genoa, and two symmetric kites from this past year. They told me not to bother with a new JT but recutting the full shaped old Genoa may make sense.

 

climenuts

Anarchist
689
275
PNW
Wide range of responses here, but no one is considering your present situation/boat/sail plan. There is probably a big jump in sail area between your asso & your 135 genoa. This is the first thing to consider -actual sail size. Then look at wind angles you want to fly this sail in. Then talk to a sailmaker. A Jibtop of the same overlap will only be slightly faster than your genoa - a little better shape, & sail area up higher (for same overlap). What is overlap/sail area of the asso?

 So until you give us dimensions of asso, I think there are two choices: replace 135 with a 150 high clewed sail or consider a free flying jibtop(?) Code 0 (?) depending on how close winded you need it to go. Set this on a bottom up furler forward of headstay, 2 x 1 halyard.
The a-sail is ballpark 150% judging by where the clew ends up when fully sheeted in light air. I haven't measured it because I don't use it when I race and don't want my rating to be affected by it.

The boat is overpowered pretty easily with the 135% Genoa as it is. Anything more than 15kts and I put up my 105% jib when single-handed. I think the PHRF code 5 Genoa is 150-155% for this boat but it would be too unwieldy for me single-handed; especially with the babystay in the mix during tacks.

 

climenuts

Anarchist
689
275
PNW
Isn't the J dimension on that boat pretty big?  Recutting an old 135, with heavy forward draft, may do just the trick.  Still a bunch of sail area forward.  Likely wouldn't be a true JT, but may be worth it.
I'm not sure what to compare it to but it's 11'4". Definitely a headsail driven boat. The thought on the forward draft with the bagged old Genoa was my thinking.

 

climenuts

Anarchist
689
275
PNW
29 mkii lacks both form stability and rig size, so first step in this process is to adjust your expectations, there is a reason there are about 3 of these in the whole province.

Second step is to recognize that a dollar spent below waterline is worth 10 dollars in sails, so make sure you have a folding prop and then budget $500/year for a diver to clean the bottom, in Vancouver that will get your boat done every second month.  Combination of these two is worth an hour on a typical crossing of Georgia Strait in a 29 footer.

Final item, more sail = more power.  A 135 genoa beats that same genoa cut down with a high clew, which typically reduces the sail to a 125 or so (measure the new LP).  The real solution here should be a 155 genoa for that boat.  If you then need still more oomph, the standard sized asym kites from North Cruising Direct are good in this application.
I know the mki has worse form stability, maybe you're thinking of that?

Folding prop is on the list for my next haul-out and I scrub the boat myself throughout the summer. Saying it'll save me an hour on a 4-5 hour crossing seems a bit rich.

I don't think it's an area issue, I think it is an issue with garbage shape once eased even with a barberhauler on the rail. Past ~15° off close hauled you can't maintain a slot.

I understand a 155% Genoa is fairly common on this boat but they are decksweepers using every inch of the Genoa track which would suffer even more when starting to ease the sheet. I am also single-handing all the time and tacking a 155% Genoa around the babystay would be a total nightmare.

 

Crash

Super Anarchist
5,014
965
SoCal
You don’t really need the babystay when you can carry the 155.  You need it to control mast pump when you’re carrying the number 3 and there’s waves /chop.  I totally did away with mine on my S2 9.1.  Maybe make the babystay detachable?  It’s not like the mast is a noodle.  You can get all the shape control you want with pre-bend and backstay...

 

Ultraman

Anarchist
818
48
Vancouver
My S-40 came with two North Jibtops.  Sold one to a friend on his X-119.  Kept the carbon one.  They are impossible to fold with the battens in and move around the boat, but in the right windy conditions they are amazing (and now forgotten) sails.  The previous owner managed 26.7 kts with it up on a Honolulu to Kauai race.  The fastest I've ever sailed was 27.1 kts with the Jibtop up on a ULDB70 ripping down the coast from Hong Kong to Vietnam after we had blown up literally all the kites.

 

Je Prefere

Anarchist
926
4
pnw
Had an old uk tape drive jibtop that I used for cruising in a j-33.  Excellent sail.  Kicked ass a few times at rtc as well.

 
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