Jobson Nails It!

[carcrash]

Sure, Jobson contributed to the problems. Lotsa people did too.

What do we do about it?

As many mentioned, LOTS of young people really REALLY care about nature and the ocean.

When sailing boomed for exactly one decade: Windsurfing and Hobie Cats. CHEAP, easy to own, easy to learn how to go fast and have fun, girls in bikinis, fit young guys, all about the fun and socializing ON THE BEACH. No YC membership required, no PROs, no long list of BS certification or equipment or complicated racing rules. Port/starboard was about it regarding rules anyone cared about. Simple cheap common hardware sold in stores that themselves were centers of socialization.

 

[Tcatman]

Meaning?

We have met the enemy and they are ours, part of a message from American naval officer Oliver Hazard Perry in 1813 after defeating and capturing Royal Navy ships in the Battle of Lake Erie. We have met the enemy and he is us, Pogo creator Walt Kelly's 20th century parody of Perry's quote.

The guts of the problem are us... the racing sailors... I think every racer on the water has to consider the game is two fold... compete as best you can and recruit and help new racers/middle of the fleet and or the sport of racing sailboats. Looking for US Sailing.. or the Olympics to solve the problem with some "magical program... or redistributing cash" or inspiration is foolish. Clean recounted survey data on why racers quit racing and it is discouraging. Consider... "Hey... i took my turn doing race committee this season" is enough of a contribution from you to maintain the sport... then you Pogo are part of the problem. Just my 2 cents worth of trying to move the rock uphill over the years.

 

[dogwatch]

Pogo creator Walt Kelly's 20th century parody of Perry's quote.

I'm afraid I have never heard of "Pogo". So I am not sure I am following your argument.

In what way are you discouraged by data on why people leave the sport?

 

[Marty Gingras]

Clean recounted survey data on why racers quit racing and it is discouraging.

Got a link to what you recall from Clean? I looked but didn't find.

 

[Curious2]

If this is the ultimate cause of reduced interest in sailboat racing, then I'd think we'd see the same reduction in interest and spend in other upper and upper middle class sports in the US, such as cycling, rock climbing, skiing, and other non-sports activities sailing now competes with including something as simple as what people invest in gaming.

Methinks it's not as simple as these graphs imply.

View attachment 581706

Fair call, but cycling (at least) is far less expensive than sailing. To get the latest "halo bike" that will get your mates drooling and envious (i.e. Cervelo Soliist) is $10k AUD. A Laser - the sort of boat that will get many on SA sneering - will cost $14500 AUD. To get the most expensive one-person "halo dinghy" that is, according to many, "the future of sailing" can cost $75,000 AUD.

I started bike racing at 40 on a second-hand bike of the level that now cost $800 AUD, or 80% of the cost of a Laser sail. At no time, in person or on-line, did anyone diss that bike in any way. The racers' attitude was that, to use the cliche, it's not about the bike although a really nice one is fun to ride.

I'm heavily into the new version of the original Windsurfer, which I'm fairly sure is the cheapest racing class in the world ($3,300 AUD new). The class is not giving out sales numbers at the moment but it's clearly the world's top selling sailboard (more popular than the Olympic IQ Foil) and third best selling racing class behind the Laser and Opti. The last worlds were restricted to 360 entries and sold out quickly. There are national fleets from Finland to South Africa and a completely innovative cooperative marketing structure.

What surprises me is not that promoting a simple, cheap, all-weather class for fun and racing works so well; some of us have been saying (and doing) that for years despite being mocked and indeed cursed for it on line. The surprising things are how many affluent middle-aged guys in an affluent country will bring up the fact that the low cost of the board is a major factor in its popularity. The other surprising thing is that the sailing media, industry and officialdom manage to basically completely ignore one of the few new (or re-born) and successful classes in the sport, and refuse to see the reasons behind its success.

 

[CruiserJim]

I was a 16 year old high school kid in a sea scout ship in Newport Beach, c.1974. I invited Bill Ficker to come talk to us kids at one of our meetings, and he did! I imagine Americas Cup skippers aren’t quite as accessible these days.

 

[mikegt4]

When sailing boomed for exactly one decade: Windsurfing and Hobie Cats. CHEAP, easy to own, easy to learn how to go fast and have fun, girls in bikinis, fit young guys, all about the fun and socializing ON THE BEACH. No YC membership required, no PROs, no long list of BS certification or equipment or complicated racing rules. Port/starboard was about it regarding rules anyone cared about. Simple cheap common hardware sold in stores that themselves were centers of socialization.

Spot on. IMO this, and the emergence of the trailer sailor, is what gave us the surge in sailing in the 1970's.

When I started sailing in the 1960's many classes, at least around here, enjoyed popularity spurts by having simple designs that corporate accountant Marvin Milquetoast and his son(s) could build in the garage for relatively cheap and have fun out on the water. Rhodes Bantams, Windmills, Y Flyers, Snipes and the like filled the docks and launch ramps. They are few of these class boats left around here. My Dad, brothers and I built an Enterprise from a kit and had a blast and yes my Dad was a corporate accountant. Today a new similar sized dinghy costs about the same as our house did back then.

 

[sunseeker]

Fair call, but cycling (at least) is far less expensive than sailing. To get the latest "halo bike" that will get your mates drooling and envious (i.e. Cervelo Soliist) is $10k AUD. A Laser - the sort of boat that will get many on SA sneering - will cost $14500 AUD. To get the most expensive one-person "halo dinghy" that is, according to many, "the future of sailing" can cost $75,000 AUD.

I started bike racing at 40 on a second-hand bike of the level that now cost $800 AUD, or 80% of the cost of a Laser sail. At no time, in person or on-line, did anyone diss that bike in any way. The racers' attitude was that, to use the cliche, it's not about the bike although a really nice one is fun to ride.

I'm heavily into the new version of the original Windsurfer, which I'm fairly sure is the cheapest racing class in the world ($3,300 AUD new). The class is not giving out sales numbers at the moment but it's clearly the world's top selling sailboard (more popular than the Olympic IQ Foil) and third best selling racing class behind the Laser and Opti. The last worlds were restricted to 360 entries and sold out quickly. There are national fleets from Finland to South Africa and a completely innovative cooperative marketing structure.

What surprises me is not that promoting a simple, cheap, all-weather class for fun and racing works so well; some of us have been saying (and doing) that for years despite being mocked and indeed cursed for it on line. The surprising things are how many affluent middle-aged guys in an affluent country will bring up the fact that the low cost of the board is a major factor in its popularity. The other surprising thing is that the sailing media, industry and officialdom manage to basically completely ignore one of the few new (or re-born) and successful classes in the sport, and refuse to see the reasons behind its success.

I’ll bet if you write the story the Ed will put it on the front page.

 

[bluelaser2]

Even the laziest analysis of the economics of sailboat racing would indicate that those costs dwarf the costs of owning and operating

a) a bicycle
b) a pair of climbing shoes
c) a set of skis
d) a video game console

It's axiomatic that yacht racing, at any scale, requires some time & money (also axiomatically the same thing) and when there is less time & vastly fewer people have vastly more of the money, something has to give, and something has given.

Expand the share of national income that the top 10% make, and there will be more and better racing.

This concludes simple answers to simple questions for today.

 

[bgytr]

Look up the thread. You are not paying attention in class!

Feel free to take it up with USSailing, or create your own organization that will solve the nebulous ills of sailing as we know it in the USA.

 

[jhc]

Feel free to take it up with USSailing, or create your own organization that will solve the nebulous ills of sailing as we know it in the USA.

WTH, asshat?
Who put you in charge?
Was pointing out to you, you may have trouble with reading comprehension, or ...readng. No, it's apparent your troubles run much deeper.

 

[Tcatman]

Got a link to what you recall from Clean? I looked but didn't find.

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Steve C ID's a issue that doesn't get much consideration... "The toxic enviorment on the race course"
Usually i find such critiques as disingenuous because their real issue is their relationship to competition winning and losing. Steve has a long positive history with competition so that means you can't dismiss his opinion.

Every survey asking why boat owners are not racing or have left racing always comes up with the same top answers: unfamiliarity with the rules, difficulty of learning and implementing them properly, and intimidated by the aggression of other racers.

This is the Kill it thread in dinghy anarchy

 

[Tcatman]

I'm afraid I have never heard of "Pogo". So I am not sure I am following your argument.

In what way are you discouraged by data on why people leave the sport?

Pogo was a carton comic strip character that i followed in the papers a long time ago and who told the unvarnished truth... Its not gonna translate..

Why discouraged.... Clean reported that rules were an issue for many.... but that would be fixable.... the depressing part was about the asshole factor on the water.... the aggression factor is controlled by the racing competitive sailors... (mix in the rules with the aggressive crap and you can generate some real melt downs that lead to screw it ... I am done with this chicken shit game) So. hanging on to those racers who do get out to the starting line seems to be a problem and so the truth of the matter as Pogo would point out is that it is us (sigh)

 

[Marty Gingras]

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Thanks. No doubt toxic aggression is a biggie. I actually took an 8-year hiatus from racing in large part because of the cheating and screaming I observed while doing a lot of race committee for several years. Turns out one of the major offenders finally alienated so many locals that he chainsawed his 30-ft boat and quit. Took way too long --- at least several years --- and there is no telling how much harm was caused. Try getting significant numbers of new kids, women, and minorities to buy into a sport with stuff like that going on...

 

[bgytr]

WTH, asshat?
Who put you in charge?
Was pointing out to you, you may have trouble with reading comprehension, or ...readng. No, it's apparent your troubles run much deeper.

And I was pointing out to you that there is nothing stopping you from presenting a developed business plan and putting it forth to the appropriate channels. Have at it buckwheat. There is nothing I see in this thread that looks like a developed roadmap, or even any consensus on what the actual problems are that need to be fixed.
Personal attacks aside, come up with a plan and take actionable steps or stop whining.

 

[jhc]

And I was pointing out to you that there is nothing stopping you from presenting a developed business plan and putting it forth to the appropriate channels. Have at it buckwheat. There is nothing I see in this thread that looks like a developed roadmap, or even any consensus on what the actual problems are that need to be fixed.
Personal attacks aside, come up with a plan and take actionable steps or stop whining.

Sorry, it's just not realistic to expect me, or anyone on this forum to solve Jobson's and USsailing's leadership problems.
The purpose, and success of online forums is that there is dialogue, discussion. At best they are informative to people who are in a position to make decisions relative to the subject at hand.
Your attitude, present or stfu, is counter to the whole idea of open discussion.
The impression I have, of your behavior, is that you are making an effort to counter my opinion on the stated subject "Jobson nails it" with subterfuge.

 

[Tcatman]

Thanks. No doubt toxic aggression is a biggie. I actually took an 8-year hiatus from racing in large part because of the cheating and screaming I observed while doing a lot of race committee for several years. Turns out one of the major offenders finally alienated so many locals that he chainsawed his 30-ft boat and quit. Took way too long --- at least several years --- and there is no telling how much harm was caused. Try getting significant numbers of new kids, women, and minorities to buy into a sport with stuff like that going on...

Sad... I wonder if skippers who compete in another sport do so in the same way that they do in sailing.. My hunch is they don't because they are face to face with their opponent. Issues get solved directly and immediately. Stewing about something for 2 weeks befor you see the problem in person is different... For instance... talking trash in volleyball or basketball is self regulating... Push it too far and somebody will be in your face...For some this is part of the fun. In dinghies... watching somebody wind themselves up on the sail back to the beach for the dispute an hour ago is not the same as managing a hard foul on the court. Moreover, Sailiboat racing has this pretense of corinthian gentleman sailors racing their yachts and issues are NOT SUPPOSED TO OCCUR because you self police your own behavior... So... they get swept under the rug ... until somebody explodes. Others like yourself walk away from the cheating and screaming matches that result from the explosion simply because they were not managed earlier and the corinthian norm is very different from what most people experience as a competitor. Of course by definition an asshat will never self regulate no matter where they are competing... So it may be a trivial distinction. Bottom line... every fleet and club has to manage the top 4 issues that Clean's survey ID'd and they can't half ass it either. Thoughts?

 

[bgytr]

Sorry, it's just not realistic to expect me, or anyone on this forum to solve Jobson's and USsailing's leadership problems.
The purpose, and success of online forums is that there is dialogue, discussion. At best they are informative to people who are in a position to make decisions relative to the subject at hand.
Your attitude, present or stfu, is counter to the whole idea of open discussion.
The impression I have, of your behavior, is that you are making an effort to counter my opinion on the stated subject "Jobson nails it" with subterfuge.

Naa no subterfuge. Just that I've seen countless threads on here over the past couple decades about "sailing sux because... Back in the good ol days it was better because...." and this seems the same as the rest of those threads. What comes of it? Nothing.

The sport evolves. Lifestyles evolve. It's a recreational activity for some and others try to make it a vocation. I'd posit that those with a vested interest are the ones who make it less fun for those who want to enjoy themselves on the water. Egos and money, and the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

[Goodvibes]

The failure of US sailing is caused by Capitalism. In the home of capitalism.

The 'commoditization' and commercialization of what was, not that long ago, a sport composed of Amateur sports clubs.

Even sailing forums won't post stuff promoting the sport for free.

 

[crashtack]

Thanks. No doubt toxic aggression is a biggie. I actually took an 8-year hiatus from racing in large part because of the cheating and screaming I observed while doing a lot of race committee for several years. Turns out one of the major offenders finally alienated so many locals that he chainsawed his 30-ft boat and quit. Took way too long --- at least several years --- and there is no telling how much harm was caused. Try getting significant numbers of new kids, women, and minorities to buy into a sport with stuff like that going on...

Life is full of assholes in general, I kind of doubt sailboat racing harbors a higher-than-average percentage