Jury Decision

[Barnyb]

After a very quick review, here are some summary points -- disclaimer, I said very quick . . .

* The Jury praised the Regatta Director as experienced and impartial, but upheld the jurisdictional objection.

Ultimately, the only decision I care about. A large number of you owe IM an apology for doing your best to drag the man's name in the mud.

WetHog h34r:

^This, +++10000

No.

IM just got spanked - completely.

There is some reconciliation talk from the teams (eg GD) but IM has been found acting beyond his jurisdiction

Peter Lester has just said on TV NZ that he thinks IM should resign, but does not think he will.

There is also the question of who would replace him.

Despite the reconciliation talk, IM has lost the confidence of LR and TNZ. The honorable thing to do (after putting this regatta into turmoil) would be to step down.

However, that is the decision of IM only. Meanwhile we all move on and watch LR on the race course.

 

[pjfranks]

Been too busy to read everything and try to figure this one out yet:

Are we sure that rudder-elevators revert to having no minimum size, as in the original Design Rule?

cleaned up in aisle 42 yet? :lol:

do you think IM/GGYC will now stop the regatta as they threatened? :lol:

 

[waterboy42]

After a very quick review, here are some summary points -- disclaimer, I said very quick . . .

* The Jury praised the Regatta Director as experienced and impartial, but upheld the jurisdictional objection.

Ultimately, the only decision I care about. A large number of you owe IM an apology for doing your best to drag the man's name in the mud.

WetHog h34r:

I would be first to apologise and agree with the IJ's summation of IM being "experienced and impartial".

For me (and most except for the "witch hunt in Salem" crowd) the dispute was not about his integrity but his proces

Despite being a great & honourable guy, we wouldn't have had this whole IJ palaver if he hadn't overstepped his mandate and tried to ram through Class Rule changes without consent.

Again, his intent was honourable, a guy (and a friend) died "on his watch"as RD, no one could blame him for wanting to go super safe,

but via the efforts to alter the class rule, he neglected his other responsibility to ensure a fair competition IMO.

Regardless, I am happy that the IJ have cemented his integrity into the Public Record as it shouldn't be in question.

Now, let's go racing Iain!

 

[GauchoGreg]

After a very quick review, here are some summary points -- disclaimer, I said very quick . . .

* The Jury praised the Regatta Director as experienced and impartial, but upheld the jurisdictional objection.

Ultimately, the only decision I care about. A large number of you owe IM an apology for doing your best to drag the man's name in the mud.

WetHog h34r:

^This, +++10000

No.

IM just got spanked - completely.

There is some reconciliation talk from the teams (eg GD) but IM has been found acting beyond his jurisdiction

Peter Lester has just said on TV NZ that he thinks IM should resign, but does not think he will.

There is also the question of who would replace him.

Despite the reconciliation talk, IM has lost the confidence of LR and TNZ. The honorable thing to do (after putting this regatta into turmoil) would be to step down.

However, that is the decision of IM only. Meanwhile we all move on and watch LR on the race course.

No. The point was that a lot of people around here were claiming IM was in the bag with OR. That concept was refuted by the IJ, as well as GD, MS, et al.

 

[WetHog]

Grant Dalton says it is OK with him if AR sails however they need to. But not OR!

http://www.vsail.info/2013/07/11/statement-from-grant-dalton-regarding-decision-of-americas-cup-international-jury/

Of course, what's wrong with this? It's not like he's saying that AR can race and score points... I think the principle is a sporting one. As said above - 'let them compete but they must comply to win'.

I'm sure they'd apply the same principle to the actual AC - "sure OTUSA can defend with any design they want, however if it doesn't comply with the Class Rules they can't score any points".

>

After a very quick review, here are some summary points -- disclaimer, I said very quick . . .

* The Jury praised the Regatta Director as experienced and impartial, but upheld the jurisdictional objection.

Ultimately, the only decision I care about. A large number of you owe IM an apology for doing your best to drag the man's name in the mud.

WetHog h34r:

Well he did make a very significant professional error in judgement that obviously exceeded his authority and cost many competitors a lot of money, some of it totally wasted.

I'm not suggesting is name is "mud" but equally, those that criticised his actions (not his person) were entirely justified.

I'm sure he had good intentions but he exercised them incorrectly and when you're in a position of significant influence and do this it's called professional negligence.

He made a very, very serious mistake and should be held to account for that.

Significant error in judgement is one thing, but most accused IM of being on the take and making his rudder recommendations for the sole purpose of favoring OR. Straight up character assasination. It was uncalled for and simply wrong.

WetHog h34r:

 

[Liquid Assett NZ]

there was only ever this outcome. Sanity is alive at the AC after all.

 

[Xlot]

^^^

Sure, whatever. Am reminded of the French "it's worse than a crime, it's a mistake". Fall on his sword?

 

[Daniel Gut]

Yes please! A decision to restore ones faith in professional sport. A few threads have gone quiet in the absence of one two who have been wearing their stars and stripes underpants a little too tightly recently. Sanitary prevails. Looking forward to watching these beasts square up to each other.

 

[WetHog]

^^^

Sure, whatever. Am reminded of the French "it's worse than a crime, it's a mistake". Fall on his sword?

Didn't figure you to be cool with the mob that attacked IM's character. Learned something else new today.

WetHog h34r:

 

[ibsailn]

And what authority or expertise does the IJ have in judging IM's character. What evidence one way or the other did they consider in making a judgement on IM's impartiality. I didn't see any evidence or arguments put forth by the teams nor was the IJ asked to pass judgement on this issue. I read that section as a total throw away line by the IJ to try their best to be nice to a friend they were slapping the wrist of and try to give him an opportunity to continue. I personally don't think IM, was on the take or anything to that effect. I think he was just trying to do his best and got carried away with his own power, but honestly, why did the IJ feel the need to state this and what evidence did they base that on.

 

[GauchoGreg]

Yes please! A decision to restore ones faith in professional sport. A few threads have gone quiet in the absence of one two who have been wearing their stars and stripes underpants a little too tightly recently. Sanitary prevails. Looking forward to watching these beasts square up to each other.

Check yourself, there, tiger. From what I recall, the "stars & stripes" contingent have defended IM's integrity, stated that OR has not been cheating, and called for a decision that did not end up precluding at team from racing simply by following the rules they knew and those that had been proposed. I do not remember anyone saying that the rules should not revert back to the original protocol, but some of us did warn that doing so may end up causing problems with securing full approval for the regatta. We have still yet to see how that will work out. The other thing many of us were in agreement was that the rules should not include some, but not others, and in so doing, preclude AR from racing, just for having follows the rules they knew and the proposed rules. From what I can see, that has not happened, as it appears, with the way things now stand, AR can race with their original rudders.

So before you act like an ass, think a little about what has actually been said an how the ruling was actually presented.

The question, now, is how will things go with the teams trying to agree with each other to really enhance safety.

By the way, OR has not been cheating, they only provided their opinion of what would be safest, and have always proclaimed they can and will comply with whatever the rules are by the time they actually race.

 

[~Stingray~~]

This from the GGYC's submission:

"If the Safety Recommendations were cherry picked, GGYC would face huge liability issues and the Regatta is likely not to continue."

isn't that what im said he would do as well? can the regatta if he didn't get his way? will RN190 will cancel the show?

The best way to resolve this was always if the teams could all agree even the few measures that had DR effects.

For the event anyway, the worst was always the situation we now face. If IM is true to his word the he will tell the CG that in his opinion the event will not be as safe without the safety rudder regs included, as it would have been with them included.

He will obviously have to pull RN189 and then immediately instruct the CG, per the IJ decision and orders. But if the CG then pulls the MEP, well I don't see how any events can continue no matter what boats are supposed to be in what race.

'Cancellation' of the AC itself seems very unlikely as the ultimate effect of today's decision but postponements sure do seem a possibility.

I hope it can be figured out; but doubt that it is possible to do so quickly with all the regulatory process that is involved.

 

[waterboy42]

Two new articles on Sail world relating to the decision :

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup:-Intl-Jury-decision-revealed-in-Safety-Rule-dispute/111844

http://www.sail-world.com/NZ/Americas-Cup:-Jury-refuses-to-support-Regatta-Director-on-Ruddergate/111845

 

[Man Overboard]

@ibsalin - I think the IJ made those statements because of the unsubstantiated character assassinations;

Significant error in judgement is one thing, but most accused IM of being on the take and making his rudder recommendations for the sole purpose of favoring OR. Straight up character assasination. It was uncalled for and simply wrong.

WetHog h34r:

Accepted without objection.

 

[GauchoGreg]

This from the GGYC's submission:

"If the Safety Recommendations were cherry picked, GGYC would face huge liability issues and the Regatta is likely not to continue."

isn't that what im said he would do as well? can the regatta if he didn't get his way? will RN190 will cancel the show?

The best way to resolve this was always if the teams could all agree even the few measures that had DR effects.

For the event anyway, the worst was always the situation we now face. If IM is true to his word the he will tell the CG that in his opinion the event will not be as safe without the safety rudder regs included, as it would have been with them included.

He will obviously have to pull RN189 and then immediately instruct the CG, per the IJ decision and orders. But if the CG then pulls the MEP, well I don't see how any events can continue no matter what boats are supposed to be in what race.

'Cancellation' of the AC itself seems very unlikely as the ultimate effect of today's decision but postponements sure do seem a possibility.

I hope it can be figured out; but doubt that it is possible to do so quickly with all the regulatory process that is involved.

Actually, I think the worst would have been if the IJ had done the split, having the new rudder length / elevator area requirements without the permissive max beam stipulation. That would have scratched AR. I believe the current decision, with the new pressure of getting something agreed-upon so things can progress, provides the avenue for new mutual consent that will allow all of the teams to move forward.

 

[Man Overboard]

Yes please! A decision to restore ones faith in professional sport. A few threads have gone quiet in the absence of one two who have been wearing their stars and stripes underpants a little too tightly recently. Sanitary prevails. Looking forward to watching these beasts square up to each other.

Check yourself, there, tiger. From what I recall, the "stars & stripes" contingent have defended IM's integrity, stated that OR has not been cheating, and called for a decision that did not end up precluding at team from racing simply by following the rules they knew and those that had been proposed. I do not remember anyone saying that the rules should not revert back to the original protocol, but some of us did warn that doing so may end up causing problems with securing full approval for the regatta. We have still yet to see how that will work out. The other thing many of us were in agreement was that the rules should not include some, but not others, and in so doing, preclude AR from racing, just for having follows the rules they knew and the proposed rules. From what I can see, that has not happened, as it appears, with the way things now stand, AR can race with their original rudders.

Edit: You're both wrong I'm afraid. (actually, I'm not sure that Daniel is saying anything different than I am... -_- )

The "'stars & stripes' contingent" (nice) were neither entirely impartial nor were they entirely bias.

There were two or three that were apparently just too stupid to understand and continued to express irrational views but once you've eliminated those statistical outliers then for the most part I saw typical partisan support which you can't hold against anyone.

 

[Rennmaus]

OR statement:

"We respect the decision of the America’s Cup Jury," said Grant Simmer, ORACLE TEAM USA General Manager. “We continue to support the Regatta Director and we believe all teams have benefited from his review. We don’t have an issue complying with the Class Rule, and we will be ready to race under the rules affirmed by the Jury.”

 

[Dupont]

^^^^ Brilliant move from the AC management. Stingray do you confirm the idea of the CG came from TE ?

They will now have to go back to the USCG and propose a lower offer accepted by all the competitors at the risk of cancelling the event.... Well, brilliant move...

 

[Daniel Gut]

Yes please! A decision to restore ones faith in professional sport. A few threads have gone quiet in the absence of one two who have been wearing their stars and stripes underpants a little too tightly recently. Sanitary prevails. Looking forward to watching these beasts square up to each other.

Check yourself, there, tiger. From what I recall, the "stars & stripes" contingent have defended IM's integrity, stated that OR has not been cheating, and called for a decision that did not end up precluding at team from racing simply by following the rules they knew and those that had been proposed. I do not remember anyone saying that the rules should not revert back to the original protocol, but some of us did warn that doing so may end up causing problems with securing full approval for the regatta. We have still yet to see how that will work out. The other thing many of us were in agreement was that the rules should not include some, but not others, and in so doing, preclude AR from racing, just for having follows the rules they knew and the proposed rules. From what I can see, that has not happened, as it appears, with the way things now stand, AR can race with their original rudders.

So before you act like an ass, think a little about what has actually been said an how the ruling was actually presented.

The question, now, is how will things go with the teams trying to agree with each other to really enhance safety.

By the way, OR has not been cheating, they only provided their opinion of what would be safest, and have always proclaimed they can and will comply with whatever the rules are by the time they actually race.

No pontificating necessary and for my part it was not an attack on IM's character, he meant well, but got it wrong, two had shown that those changes were not fundamental to safety and were justified (now vindicated) in questioning the validity of those decisions and allowing a dangerous precedent to be set. That's all it was about.

I meant only a very limited few headinSFfogtightunderpantedindividuals, apologies for being too general

 

[kiwi_bob]

After a very quick review, here are some summary points -- disclaimer, I said very quick . . .

* The Jury praised the Regatta Director as experienced and impartial, but upheld the jurisdictional objection.

Ultimately, the only decision I care about. A large number of you owe IM an apology for doing your best to drag the man's name in the mud.

WetHog h34r:

I'd like to see his reaction B4 I decide exactly what I think of IM - if its a big hissy fit and attempts to cancel the regatta then not so good. Applogise for the chaos and just get on with it (or resign) then maybe just unwise. I think with AR if you change the class rule for them they need to be able to run with it for the comp. It's a risk for ETNZ and LR but so be it.