Jury Notices & Decisions Thread

[Hastings]

No, that's for the AC72 rule 22, which is directed toward confirming the allowed type of material and construction process: "Competitors shall provide a material usage schedule and the material manufacturer’s certificate of compliance for FRP used in each component described in rule 22.1 to the Measurement Committee".

Above, they are asking about the protocol 29, which is directed at repairs and modifications: "The Measurement Committee shall issue an interpretation of Articles 29.5, 29.6, 29.7 and 29.8 as well as information that Competitors must supply to the Measurement Committee about the components described in Article 29 and the procedures to document the components and to manage the modifications."

Seems like the MC is behind on their work. The 22 control procedure really should have been detailed before building started and the 29 control procedure before anyone needed to repair anything.

Protocol Article 29.9. Measurement Committee Interpretation

(a) The Measurement Committee shall issue an interpretation of Articles 29.5, 29.6, 29.7 and 29.8 as well as information that Competitors must supply to the Measurement Committee about the components described in Article 29 and the procedures to document the components and to manage the modifications.

Article 1.6, defines the words “shall” and “must” as mandatory.

To date, the Measurement Committee have not issued any interpretations of the specified Articles, and considering that Art. 29.6, 29.7 and 29.8 have specific application to ORTUSA's repairs to OR17/1, could this cause potential delays to the repairs? Could OR claim being disadvantaged because the MC have failed to perform a mandatory requirement under the Protocol?

Or maybe they wait for OR repairs to issue it ?

It is pretty strange to have such an interpretation issued AFTER boats are constructed.

I'd like to think the MC is working closely with, and answering queries from, ORTUSA over their repairs, and just haven't got around to releasing the information publicly. 29.10 certainly demands that MC written approval is obtained before commencing any repairs: I doubt that the MC or Jury will accept that any failure to obtain approval was "inadvertent".

I hope the MC's failure to provide the interpretations doesn't become an issue for ORTUSA and/or AR, though perhaps not so much for AR. Time is their enemy, and if there is an opportunity to seek more of it, the MC might be providing it....

I wonder if this relates to the "favour" Comrade Huston wants from ..... what's their name again? ... the syndicate representing the RNZYS ?

 

[~Stingray~~]

.. Also interesting to note that this is Case AC18 and the previous one is Cas16: is there a Case17 we don't know about?

GD suggested in iirc a Tasker interview he might file a case, over the bases issue. Could be that?

 

[Hastings]

.. Also interesting to note that this is Case AC18 and the previous one is Cas16: is there a Case17 we don't know about?

GD suggested in iirc a Tasker interview he might file a case, over the bases issue. Could be that?

He wants $$$ compensation for the base switcheroo!

Until that is settled it would be expecting a lot to see TNZ dish out "favours" to the defender.

 

[~Stingray~~]

^ Nobody, PH included, is suggesting anybody 'dish out favors' to anyone else. The point is that some changes, like the spar flotation example I pointed to, might be of great value to everyone.

Increasing the number of spar sections may be a stretch of that same idea (being more expensive $ and time wise than flotation that would help ease the extra-spar necessity chances) but since it's 'just' a spar section then easing that restriction may also be a plausible and realistic benefit to all. The various XX,000 man hour numbers we have seen from differing sources surely included the entire wing - a far more complex endeavor than the spar alone.

The rule was there to help the potential €20m campaigns anyway; since none of them are in the game it may be less a competitive concern now than when envisioned.

GD is not about to hand out any imagined 'favors' but may consider that some changes would better guarantee even his own ability to survive all the way to a Cup victory. Remember ETNZ's sailing and their rescue performance, in Newport?

Oh that's right, you admitted you haven't seen even one AC45 regatta so how would you know how easily ETNZ wiped out even at that scale?

 

[Tornado-Cat]

^ Nobody, PH included, is suggesting anybody 'dish out favors' to anyone else. The point is that some changes, like the spar flotation example I pointed to, might be of great value to everyone.

Increasing the number of spar sections may be a stretch of that same idea

^^^^

I guess the spin is around the spar flotation device...

A few quotes chosen from PH rants :

- "If i was Dalton, I would have raised my hand the next day and said "maybe we need to give the wing replacement rule a rethink". He could have bought himself a favor, and a lot of goodwill from the US audience."

- "There is going to come a time when the team which represents RNZYS is going to need a favor.....there was room to get Larry to make some sort of deal"

"The two teams that would benefit the most from a change in the wing rule, to allow more elements would RNZYS and Prada, especially Prada, because those two have essentially a Lego boat-wing. If they don't want to cut GGYC a break AND buy themselves something in the process, I don't care either. Frankly, I truly hope RNZYS busts up into little bits before Race One of the Louis Vuitton Cup."

I am not even sure OR was willing to bargain the wing or something else like, even more important for them TIME.

 

[~Stingray~~]

^ It's a very big stretch to think anyone takes a time extension fantasy seriously. You and Indio go on and on about it but the chances and hopes of it happening (even if the OR boatbuilders wish it were so) must be vanishingly remote for everyone else.

Your suggestion that the Capt K bs has any possible impact to the timeline is equally bizarre, given the already drawn out timeline of that case even before appeals, if even necessesary, get filed in his face.

 

[Indio]

^ It's a very big stretch to think anyone takes a time extension fantasy seriously. You and Indio go on and on about it but the chances and hopes of it happening (even if the OR boatbuilders wish it were so) must be vanishingly remote for everyone else.

Get your facts straight, dickhead! None of us is saying that OR would like to change the rules to buy themselves more time: we all know that OR's biggest problem IS time!! We've suggested that OR might want the Protocol amended over the repairs permitted and their potential impact on the status of the second boat.

 

[jaysper]

^ It's a very big stretch to think anyone takes a time extension fantasy seriously. You and Indio go on and on about it but the chances and hopes of it happening (even if the OR boatbuilders wish it were so) must be vanishingly remote for everyone else.

Get your facts straight, dickhead! None of us is saying that OR would like to change the rules to buy themselves more time: we all know that OR's biggest problem IS time!! We've suggested that OR might want the Protocol amended over the repairs permitted and their potential impact on the status of the second boat.

Actually Indio, some of our more fanatical countrymen have been making pretty outrageous claims including this.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

Actually Indio, some of our more fanatical countrymen have been making pretty outrageous claims

I think no poster, wherever from, has ever made PH outrageous statement about the OR boat: "I truly hope RNZYS busts up into little bits".

 

[Hastings]

^ Nobody, PH included, is suggesting anybody 'dish out favors' to anyone else. The point is that some changes, like the spar flotation example I pointed to, might be of great value to everyone.

Sorry mate ... Comrade Huston was clearly calling on Dalts to offer OR a "favour."

Not sure what it was. But I assumed Peter was referring to the "only build 3 wings" requirement.

 

[Hastings]

GD is not about to hand out any imagined 'favors' but may consider that some changes would better guarantee even his own ability to survive all the way to a Cup victory.

Dalts understands the need to survive and does not need you and Huston to cry crocodile tears on his behalf.

If Dalts wants changes he can speak for himself.

 

[Hastings]

Actually Indio, some of our more fanatical countrymen have been making pretty outrageous claims

I think no poster, wherever from, has ever made PH outrageous statement about the OR boat: "I truly hope RNZYS busts up into little bits".

I agree! Peter is not having a good week. And this statement is outrageous.

Maybe he could delete (or explain) his statement?

 

[Kiwing]

^^^

Is this for the Jury to decide too?

 

[Boybland]

^^^

Is this for the Jury to decide too?

Only if another competitor makes an official complain to Anarchy Comments Rules Management....

 

[Indio]

Bitter Peter is blissfully pissed off that OR17 is nowhere to be seen. As are most of the OR koolaid addicts..

 

[~Stingray~~]

Bitter Peter is blissfully pissed off that OR17 is nowhere to be seen. As are most of the OR koolaid addicts..

Color me an OR fan who is disappointed at the setback, for sure, but in no way pissed off or angry. They just have a big, early challenge ahead, much like what AR has had to overcome.

ETNZ is looking excellent, I really hope LR can catch up in relatively short order. Looking forward to seeing them full-out foiling their L's in a great downwinder, starting alongside ETNZ riding their S's.

 

[KiwiJoker]

Bitter Peter is blissfully pissed off that OR17 is nowhere to be seen. As are most of the OR koolaid addicts..

Color me an OR fan who is disappointed at the setback, for sure, but in no way pissed off or angry. They just have a big, early challenge ahead, much like what AR has had to overcome.

ETNZ is looking excellent, I really hope LR can catch up in relatively short order. Looking forward to seeing them full-out foiling their L's in a great downwinder, starting alongside ETNZ riding their S's.

Nicely stated!

After a couple of hours watching the Spencer web cam this week it seems to me that when it comes to boat speed, in light air at least, LR is on the pace. Vote is out on crew work and the heavy weather stuff. Too bad that ETNZ only has a few allocated sailing days left.

Given that this thread is about measurement . . . does anyone have news about ETNZ measurement on Wednesday? Do they have the chain saws out? And what about LR? Were they tape tested too? To what end?

And finally, when is the Jury going to explain to Artemis, non too gently I hope, that they are pissing to windward with their appeal against the appeal?

 

[Indio]

Bitter Peter is blissfully pissed off that OR17 is nowhere to be seen. As are most of the OR koolaid addicts..

Color me an OR fan who is disappointed at the setback, for sure, but in no way pissed off or angry. They just have a big, early challenge ahead, much like what AR has had to overcome.

ETNZ is looking excellent, I really hope LR can catch up in relatively short order. Looking forward to seeing them full-out foiling their L's in a great downwinder, starting alongside ETNZ riding their S's.

Nicely stated!

After a couple of hours watching the Spencer web cam this week it seems to me that when it comes to boat speed, in light air at least, LR is on the pace. Vote is out on crew work and the heavy weather stuff. Too bad that ETNZ only has a few allocated sailing days left.

Given that this thread is about measurement . . . does anyone have news about ETNZ measurement on Wednesday? Do they have the chain saws out? And what about LR? Were they tape tested too? To what end?

And finally, when is the Jury going to explain to Artemis, non too gently I hope, that they are pissing to windward with their appeal against the appeal?

I think they were simply re-measured for a new Measurement Certificate under AC72 Class Rule 27.2 following the "speed implant" mods, with the original Measurement Certificate invalided by the mods.

27.2 Except for repair of, or replacement for, unintended damage, the measurement certificate ceases to be valid if there is any change to:

(a) any information recorded on the AC72 Yacht’s measurement certificate, except that when not racing the following changes are permitted:

(i) rudder or rudder stock movement as a result of the adjustment of a selfaligning bearing mechanism, provided that the total adjustment between bearings shall not exceed 0.010 m, and provided that after the movement the rudder complies with rule 8;

(ii) changes to wing weight and wing CG, provided those changes are still within the limits of rule 10.12; and

(iii) changes in measurement weight or the distribution of measurement weight, provided that MWP would not change more than 0.004 m at the stern plane or stem plane, and provided that after the change, the AC72 Yacht still complies with the limits of rule 26(a).

(iv) changes in other numerical values recorded on the measurement certificate that are solely the result of changes permitted in (i), (ii) and (iii) above, provided that all the resultant changes still fall within the limits of the AC72 Class Rule.

The AC18 case is dragging on a bit for what should be a straight forward denial of AR's challenge to the Jury's authority to make the dumping PI22.

However, I fully expect AR to protest the ETNZ-LR training together under Proto 32.2

 

[Hastings]

Bitter Peter is blissfully pissed off that OR17 is nowhere to be seen. As are most of the OR koolaid addicts..

Peter has had a leaky head gasket this week and, later on, will likely regret saying he wants to see the tractor in shreds.

I have decided to overlook his outbursts because, on balance, he brings quite a bit to these threads.

For example, his analysis of the Canadian Fireplace challenge was quite intelligent and very revealing.

His "give us a favour" thing is odd. But was clearly posted on behalf of someone else. He was asked to insinuate the "favour" question into the discourse.

Unlike a couple of very disturbed characters that post here, I look forward to having a beer with Huston.

I think he is alright. Just frustrated with the OR situation.

 

[eric e]

Bitter Peter is blissfully pissed off that OR17 is nowhere to be seen. As are most of the OR koolaid addicts..

Color me an OR fan who is disappointed at the setback, for sure, but in no way pissed off or angry. They just have a big, early challenge ahead, much like what AR has had to overcome.

ETNZ is looking excellent, I really hope LR can catch up in relatively short order. Looking forward to seeing them full-out foiling their L's in a great downwinder, starting alongside ETNZ riding their S's.

you have been remarkable in your moderate tone stinger

a very mature stance

sorry about your dad

my mum battling the big C too