Kat Ketch rigs

[Kris Cringle]

You have this history a little screwed up. Rodger Martin Design (partners Rodger and Ross Weene) entered a competition to update the Outward Bound pulling boats, originally designed by Cy Hamlin. They won, and the cat ketch RMD boats were built in the Boothbay area. I helped Ross and Rodger get the first couple of them out the door when there was a time crunch just prior to their debut at Hurricane island. When they were launched, there was a big event at Hurricane island where people got to sail the new boats. It was a lot of fun, and the boats are really cool. Unfortunately OB started to suffer financial issues shortly after, and they only got a few of them built. In the mean time, RMYD designed the Presto, which is obviously similar but different in a few ways, as far as the hull and rig being more powerful. I think they were originally produced at Union River Boatworks and then later Derecktor (Robin Hood marine I think) took over. To me the P30 is almost the perfect boat. I keep dreaming that I’ll find one for less than it’s worth

Thanks for the timeline. I had a friend at OB at the time and got the tour of the OB 30. He had great hopes for it.

I'm still surprised the Presto 30 didn't have much appeal. Could just be due to the lack of new sailboat buyers then, and now.

Someone here mentioned the aft mast placement as a possible turn-off?

Cat ketch on Somes Sound

 

[eliboat]

Thanks for the timeline. I had a friend at OB at the time and got the tour of the OB 30. He had great hopes for it.

I'm still surprised the Presto 30 didn't have much appeal. Could just be due to the lack of new sailboat buyers then, and now.

Someone here mentioned the aft mast placement as a possible turn-off?

Cat ketch on Somes Sound

View attachment 570019

Well fwiw, the Presto did win Boat of the Year back when it debuted. That is usually the kiss of death for any design, no matter how good in most cases. They certainly weren’t inexpensive, that may have been a factor. I think the boat buying public in general doesn’t have great taste.

The last element to this is that Rodger really suffered from persistent bad luck, despite being IMO, one of the truly great design talents of the last 40 years. I don’t think Rodger ever became a well known name outside the world of boat nerds like all of us. This is a great shame.

 

[nota]

Work better too. Bigger gap = less interference. Smaller mizzen = longer leading edge on main. However, rather than a huge boomkin (for which you will pay berthing charges anyway), might as well have more boat.

in post 71 there is a sketch of the beachcombers rig

NOTE the dotted lines of the staysail flown up between the masts very high up from the main mast top to sheeted the mizzen top I have the pulley there
and then down to the deck by the mizzen base
I have that sail but the previous owner never flew it
and HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE USED THAT HIGH UP
Mizzen top to deck like a jib sure standard stay sail rig


any ideas or experiences with a sail flown all the way up there between mast tops ?
can it be carried on a reach or simply a running sail
how much strain wind range before tears or tear
sail looks like a medium nylon spin material
and high up sails could heel the boat a lot

I have other boats sails and thought about a bowsprit for down wind sailing as helm could be a lot if tryed above a run /far reach

 

[DDW]

You'd only be flying it in light pressure, so it shouldn't strain anything. Necessarily sheeted to CL, I'd thing a beam to broad reach would the the only points of sail that it could be used effectively.

I have a mizzen staysail and an asym on a carbon sprit on my cat yawl. The mizzen staysail looks good but doesn't do a huge amount, maybe adding a couple of tenths of a knot. It is only 280 sq ft vs the 960 sq ft main and 230 sq ft mizzen, both of which can be squared off downwind. The asym is another 1000 sq ft but the range of use is narrow because it gets blanked by the main in spite of the 10' pole. It works best at about 150 deg true. In say 6 knots true @ 150, I'll get 6.8 knots boat speed @ 65 deg AWA, about as close as I can carry it. Another 20 degrees off the TWA and blanketing becomes an issue and things go to hell. DDW wing and wing is possible, but difficult to manage.

A mizzen staysail you can tack on one side and sheet to the boom on the other. Imagine what this would look like tacked to the CL and sheeted to the CL:

 

[AngusM]

Long time lurker, but this topic hooked me; let me add what I can to the Presto story. I've been a long time fan of Rodger and the Presto and was one of the crew behind trying to get the Presto back into production via Adventure BoatWorks. It was a labor of love (and side gig with help from a few friends in the sailing industry)... basically I wanted one myself and felt it deserved another run. It's been an effort for several years, with a lot of various twists and turns, and not a lot of progress. Not because of lack of interest... for a boat that had such a limited production run it's amazing how many people wanted to be kept in the loop on development. And through the process, getting to know Rodger was an honor... he was a true gentleman and fascinating person. And he loved the Presto and wanted nothing more than to get it back into production. In the many conversations about the boat, what was amazing was to hear him talk about the benefits of the cat ketch rig, and freestanding masts... it was wild to hear given his past designs. He was a true convert. And his adventures in his Presto bore out how much you could do with the boat, and with that rig. After Union River went out of business, Derecktor did build one boat. Since then there have been several attempts over the past decade with no luck. One of the biggest issues we and others have found was finding a builder. For most, the limited potential production run kept the price quotes high, if they were even interested. Most either wanted to build bigger boats, or powerboats. And then covid showed up. The site is still up with TBD as delivery as I remain hopeful. All that said, one did come on the market at the end of 2021 and I snapped it up. Last season was the first sailing out of Marblehead. And they do sail as advertised... amazingly responsive, quick off the breeze, easy to sail, and one of the best cockpits for sailing and post sailing. The engine well is a marvel... well executed and easy to use, and keeps the weight centered. Mine has the pop-top which looks weird when lifted, but does give full 6' headroom so it works at anchor or on the mooring. And I'm a convert re: the rig - the wishbones, freestanding, cat ketch... it is amazingly well balanced. All that said, they (cat ketches) suck as advertised if you want/need to go upwind. It is truly painful. Here's a pic sailing in Marblehead harbor this summer.

 

[Kolibri]

I had a cat ketch rig on a previous boat and i have a daughter named Kat so I guess it was a Kat Ketch rig. It was a blast to sail on a reach or down wind. Up wind it kind of sucked compared to a good sloop or cutter rigged boat. The coolest thing about the boat is that it had a planing hull that would start skipping across the water when the wind cranked up. We could easily hit 11 to 14 knots with the right conditions.

 

[valcour2]

Core Sound 17?

 

[Kolibri]

Core Sound 17?

Yep. Great design for the most part.

 

[DDW]

All that said, they (cat ketches) suck as advertised if you want/need to go upwind. It is truly painful.

A una rig or yawl is better. Properly done it gives nothing away to a sloop.

Great to hear the whole story - I thought it was and is a very interesting boat.

 

[Raz'r]

A una rig or yawl is better. Properly done it gives nothing away to a sloop.

Great to hear the whole story - I thought it was and is a very interesting boat.

Cat Yawls you say?

 

[DDW]

I rather like that boat. Was it a Ljundström main? They gave up a tremendous amount of upwind by making the leach hollow. It wants a square head main. Where can I find some more info on it?

 

[Veeger]

It's a Dick Newick 36'er. Yes, it was intended as a Ljundstrom rig. I was very interested long ago. I think 'maybe' there were two built and one was on the Great lakes for some period of time. Lost track a long time ago. I still think the concept has much merit but of course, it's a lot of boat ($) for the accommodations. Biggest show stopper for me was no real place for a private head as access forward was blocked by a watertight bulkhead by the mast.

 

[SemiSalt]

Long time lurker, but this topic hooked me; let me add what I can to the Presto story. I've been a long time fan of Rodger and the Presto and was one of the crew behind trying to get the Presto back into production via Adventure BoatWorks. It was a labor of love (and side gig with help from a few friends in the sailing industry)... basically I wanted one myself and felt it deserved another run. It's been an effort for several years, with a lot of various twists and turns, and not a lot of progress. Not because of lack of interest... for a boat that had such a limited production run it's amazing how many people wanted to be kept in the loop on development. And through the process, getting to know Rodger was an honor... he was a true gentleman and fascinating person. And he loved the Presto and wanted nothing more than to get it back into production. In the many conversations about the boat, what was amazing was to hear him talk about the benefits of the cat ketch rig, and freestanding masts... it was wild to hear given his past designs. He was a true convert. And his adventures in his Presto bore out how much you could do with the boat, and with that rig. After Union River went out of business, Derecktor did build one boat. Since then there have been several attempts over the past decade with no luck. One of the biggest issues we and others have found was finding a builder. For most, the limited potential production run kept the price quotes high, if they were even interested. Most either wanted to build bigger boats, or powerboats. And then covid showed up. The site is still up with TBD as delivery as I remain hopeful. All that said, one did come on the market at the end of 2021 and I snapped it up. Last season was the first sailing out of Marblehead. And they do sail as advertised... amazingly responsive, quick off the breeze, easy to sail, and one of the best cockpits for sailing and post sailing. The engine well is a marvel... well executed and easy to use, and keeps the weight centered. Mine has the pop-top which looks weird when lifted, but does give full 6' headroom so it works at anchor or on the mooring. And I'm a convert re: the rig - the wishbones, freestanding, cat ketch... it is amazingly well balanced. All that said, they (cat ketches) suck as advertised if you want/need to go upwind. It is truly painful. Here's a pic sailing in Marblehead harbor this summer.

View attachment 570104

Interesting that you like the engine treatment. Just seemed odd to me looking at the pictures.

 

[Raz'r]

I rather like that boat. Was it a Ljundström main? They gave up a tremendous amount of upwind by making the leach hollow. It wants a square head main. Where can I find some more info on it?

Newick White Wings, I recall was Dick's attempt at a "Rozinante" dayboat. Was for sale cheap in that advert. Don't know where she is now.

 

[AngusM]

Interesting that you like the engine treatment. Just seemed odd to me looking at the pictures.

Yeah, I agree its a bit odd looking. But weirdly it is useful in the cockpit... as a raised seat, something to lean against mid-cockpit, etc. It's interesting as you think through the alternatives (hang off stern, engine well in stern, inboard diesel), they all don't work or aren't ideal given the design brief, and given Rodgers racing background, you see why he ended up designing it as is. The engine/engine bracket is on a track with tackle, so pulling it up is quite easy. The one tricky part is getting it out. Haven't had to do it, but figure I'll use the gin pole as it would be hard to get leverage to just lift it out.

 

[[email protected]]

Long time lurker, but this topic hooked me; let me add what I can to the Presto story. I've been a long time fan of Rodger and the Presto and was one of the crew behind trying to get the Presto back into production via Adventure BoatWorks. It was a labor of love (and side gig with help from a few friends in the sailing industry)... basically I wanted one myself and felt it deserved another run. It's been an effort for several years, with a lot of various twists and turns, and not a lot of progress. Not because of lack of interest... for a boat that had such a limited production run it's amazing how many people wanted to be kept in the loop on development. And through the process, getting to know Rodger was an honor... he was a true gentleman and fascinating person. And he loved the Presto and wanted nothing more than to get it back into production. In the many conversations about the boat, what was amazing was to hear him talk about the benefits of the cat ketch rig, and freestanding masts... it was wild to hear given his past designs. He was a true convert. And his adventures in his Presto bore out how much you could do with the boat, and with that rig. After Union River went out of business, Derecktor did build one boat. Since then there have been several attempts over the past decade with no luck. One of the biggest issues we and others have found was finding a builder. For most, the limited potential production run kept the price quotes high, if they were even interested. Most either wanted to build bigger boats, or powerboats. And then covid showed up. The site is still up with TBD as delivery as I remain hopeful. All that said, one did come on the market at the end of 2021 and I snapped it up. Last season was the first sailing out of Marblehead. And they do sail as advertised... amazingly responsive, quick off the breeze, easy to sail, and one of the best cockpits for sailing and post sailing. The engine well is a marvel... well executed and easy to use, and keeps the weight centered. Mine has the pop-top which looks weird when lifted, but does give full 6' headroom so it works at anchor or on the mooring. And I'm a convert re: the rig - the wishbones, freestanding, cat ketch... it is amazingly well balanced. All that said, they (cat ketches) suck as advertised if you want/need to go upwind. It is truly painful. Here's a pic sailing in Marblehead harbor this summer.

View attachment 570104

I had a cat ketch rig on a previous boat and i have a daughter named Kat so I guess it was a Kat Ketch rig. It was a blast to sail on a reach or down wind. Up wind it kind of sucked compared to a good sloop or cutter rigged boat. The coolest thing about the boat is that it had a planing hull that would start skipping across the water when the wind cranked up. We could easily hit 11 to 14 knots with the right conditions.

View attachment 570188

Thank you both for your insights. You say windward performance sucks - just how bad is it? This is Cruising Anarchy, but how much would they suffer against a sloop rigged sister-ship, all else equal?

 

[Kolibri]

Thank you both for your insights. You say windward performance sucks - just how bad is it? This is Cruising Anarchy, but how much would they suffer against a sloop rigged sister-ship, all else equal?

Just a guess on my part, but probably about 10 deg of difference in pointing performance for my previous boat.

 

[Tanton Y_M]

A lot of the popularity of cat ketch rigs in traditional boats goes back to the New Haven sharpies.

Gary Hoyt and Freedom Yachts started out with cat ketches, but switched to cat sloops (i.e. sloops with very small jibs). That's suggestive about what sells. I looked over a Freedom 28 cat ketch in a boatyard, and, to me, it seemed like it had a lot more wetted surface than a typical sloop of the same size. Hoyt was never interested in racing, as far as I know. He was more interested in getting noobs out on the water.

Halsey Herreshoff designed the blue one posted by Rasputin. It had a brief popularity with some racing sailors, but they used mizzen staysails, and maybe some other light sails, making it as complicated as a sloop, or more so,

Eric Spondberg has done a lot of design work on unstayed spars. He made an attempt to get a high level of performance, but the project failed for reasons other than the vessel or rig's design.

YMT has been a big fan, and has posted some of his opinions and experiences.,

Once upon a time, I gave some thought to finding a cat ketch for beer can racing, mostly thinking how much easier wing and wing than with a whisker pool on a sloop. In my enlightened old age, I lean more to thinking that the crew most just sits around, and there is no reason to reduce the amount of work they have to do. After all, why are they there?

 

[accnick]

Thanks for the timeline. I had a friend at OB at the time and got the tour of the OB 30. He had great hopes for it.

I'm still surprised the Presto 30 didn't have much appeal. Could just be due to the lack of new sailboat buyers then, and now.

Someone here mentioned the aft mast placement as a possible turn-off?

Cat ketch on Somes Sound

View attachment 570019

KC, are you still using that roller-reefing boom as it was designed to be used? My experience with those was absolutely miserable.

 

[accnick]

You have this history a little screwed up. Rodger Martin Design (partners Rodger and Ross Weene) entered a competition to update the Outward Bound pulling boats, originally designed by Cy Hamlin. They won, and the cat ketch RMD boats were built in the Boothbay area. I helped Ross and Rodger get the first couple of them out the door when there was a time crunch just prior to their debut at Hurricane island. When they were launched, there was a big event at Hurricane island where people got to sail the new boats. It was a lot of fun, and the boats are really cool. Unfortunately OB started to suffer financial issues shortly after, and they only got a few of them built. In the mean time, RMYD designed the Presto, which is obviously similar but different in a few ways, as far as the hull and rig being more powerful. I think they were originally produced at Union River Boatworks and then later Derecktor (Robin Hood marine I think) took over. To me the P30 is almost the perfect boat. I keep dreaming that I’ll find one for less than it’s worth

I knew Rodger well. We lived just a few blocks apart in Newport in the 1980s and 1990s, and since we were both in the sailing industry, our paths crossed constantly.

Despite lacking academic training in either yacht design or engineering, he was smart and pragmatic, and had an intuition for yacht design that exceeded that of most people with more formal training. His learning was hands-on, and his interests prodigious. His success at Derecktor and Pedrick Yacht design before going out on his own was the best type of training you can get.

This is not to mention the fact that anyone who could get along with Bob Derecktor for more than about five minutes without wanting to walk out of the room shows a remarkable amount of self-control and self-confidence.

He may have been soft-spoken, but that masked a truly competitive spirit.

He also loved race cars, and built several for himself. He was an absolute terror behind the wheel.

A one point in the late 1980s, he owned a Sunbeam Tiger, a hybrid British-American sports car that managed to shoehorn a 350 hp American V8 into a car designed for a 75 hp four-cylinder engine. Think of it as a less sophisticated AC Cobra.

I had a Porsche 911 at the same time, and we used to go on weekend drives together on southern New England back roads. Just as with sailors, you put two sports car owners on the same road at the same time, and you are racing, even if only one of you knows it. It was a bizarre contest--the Tiger's mind-boggling acceleration on the straights vs. the underpowered Porsche's sneaky way through the bends and turns.

He loved to drive fast, and he loved to sail fast.

Rodger never had great commercial success, but the people who bought his boats knew they were getting the real deal.

The Presto 30 is a remarkable little boat-- easy to handle, with a surprising turn of speed. I hope you can find one. It's a great boat for thin-water cruising, even if it is a bit Spartan for some folks who want all the mod cons in a 30-footer.

If you want the same concept and capability in a larger package, he designed a 42' sharpie with similar characteristics, but a lot more room. I think it draws something like 18" with the appendages retracted. Not sure if one of those has ever been built, but it should have been.