Keep Your Pros on the Dock

Curious2

Anarchist
942
553
So helps me understand your point of view, but to me many of the examples are a bit odd.

The first set of stuff circa 1900 was about how much (or little) to pay crew, not about whether to pay them. I doubt it crossed the minds of the gentlemen owners of Royal Thames that they might ask one of their friends to do the work of 'the men'. I'm also fascinatined by what 'losing money' was and how and why it was paid. so would love to know what was elided by the ellipsis in that example.

The seahorse example from the '80's implies that the attendance at major regattas diminished when the ORC tried to limit pros because the classes with no pros attending were considered less prestigious, or am I reading that wrong?

RTYC ran a series of races for amateur crews as early as 1884, and they were well after the first clubs and events just for amateurs, so your doubts about the sailors of the time are baseless. However, it was recognised that in general, pros were more likely to win, just as now.

The whole issue of "corinthianism" or "amateurism" in sport at the time is a big field to study. It's significant that sailing had its boomtime in the post WW2 era when even America's Cup crews were largely amateur because of the success of the "Corinthian" ideal.

To get into the question of "losing money", winning bonuses, messing allowances and all the other intricacies of paying crew is complicated and you are welcome to research it yourself. Winning bonuses are obvious; some owners also paid money when their crews raced (as distinct from cruising or sitting on the mooring) but lost.

The basic point is that since the 1800s, it has been recognised that paying for pro crew could drive owners out of the sport.

I can't recall whether Seahorse said that the number of boats in level rating regattas reduced when pros were limited. The main point was that they were saying that the increase in costs due to the rise of pros was a major factor in the huge drop in level rating racing at that time.

The idea that increasing the dramatically increasing the cost of being competitive in a sporting competition will generally reduce participation is so obvious to most people that it's odd that some people reverse the onus of evidence when it's discussed.

Carping about the examples I gave is very odd when I clearly said I was away from my sources, and when your side has given no evidence at all but apocryphal tales that can be rebutted by equally experienced owners and sailors.
 
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Curious2

Anarchist
942
553
What did you have that was a copy of a S20? Was it better built than a S20?

Crossfire 20, in Australia. A Californian called Geoff Conklin built a bunch of them, then a very ugly 25 footer (not a 525) before his factory suffered a mysterious fire. I think all the Crossfires were fairly well built in foam sandwich, but I don't know how the Santanas compared.
 
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pqbon

Anarchist
552
280
Cambridge UK
Crossfire 20, in Australia. A Californian called Geoff Conklin built a bunch of them, then a very ugly 25 footer (not a 525) before his factory suffered a mysterious fire. I think all the Crossfires were fairly well built in foam sandwich, but I don't know how the Santanas compared.
Overnighting on my 20 - I new it was time to wake up because I could see the sunlight through the hull!
 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
3,090
822
Evanston
Funny situation about pros, during J70 Kiel Week.

From a pro, I would expect, that he can read the rules...

I totally believe that none of the boats protested were aware of the rule.
I have read the class rules several time, but it never actually occurred to me that a boat might be protested for the helm not having a world sailing classification. :).
In fact if you had asked me if there were any requirements I would probably have said no..... and that's having read the rule.
 

Svanen

Super Anarchist
1,096
343
Whitby
pros have infested even the lowest level of racing at the lowest level of sailing
only-in-america-script-cover-plain.jpg
 

Howler

Animal control officer
599
589
One of the problems is that the categorization rules are so opaque. Start with a Google search or start on World Sailing's website, and see if you can find, with less than half an hour of digging, any sense of what constitutes Cat 1 vs Cat 3.

If a 23 year old graduate student gets a part-time job working behind the cash register at West Marine, does that make her Cat 3? What about if she gets a summer job coaching the youth program at her town recreation department? A simple one pager or flowchart might go a long way here.
 

BrightAyes

Banned
777
330
Cyberspace
One of the problems is that the categorization rules are so opaque. Start with a Google search or start on World Sailing's website, and see if you can find, with less than half an hour of digging, any sense of what constitutes Cat 1 vs Cat 3.

If a 23 year old graduate student gets a part-time job working behind the cash register at West Marine, does that make her Cat 3? What about if she gets a summer job coaching the youth program at her town recreation department? A simple one pager or flowchart might go a long way here.
Well...it ain't that complicated. We could care less if a store clerk or summer kiddie coach gets to ride on a hot one design. What owner is going to pay her to race? Will she serve as tactician..or beer fetcher? You're confusing the situation. The arguement is about really professional SAILORS with resumes to match their pay. No one wants to prohibit young eager beavers from participating.
 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
Start with a Google search or start on World Sailing's website, and see if you can find, with less than half an hour of digging, any sense of what constitutes Cat 1 vs Cat 3.
I mean, this is the first thing that pops up. Seems pretty clear and only took 8 minutes to read the FAQ, which seems to answer most questions. I'd also emphasize that WS's classification staff is pretty good about responding to calls and emails. It's a fucked up org but this department is well run.

 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
3,090
822
Evanston
Assuming this is satire. For those who think it not, here

View attachment 599644
No sadly I was serious.
I had read the class rules several time, including this part of it.
I know it seems stupid (...no it is stupid... ) but as someone who would never in a million years be classified as a pro and as someone who has a CAT1 classification because I race corinthian, it never actually sank into my brain that every J70 driver has to have an ISAF classification.
 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
No sadly I was serious.
I had read the class rules several time, including this part of it.
I know it seems stupid (...no it is stupid... ) but as someone who would never in a million years be classified as a pro and as someone who has a CAT1 classification because I race corinthian, it never actually sank into my brain that every J70 driver has to have an ISAF classification.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I have CEOs as clients who sign documents without reading every word, and my job is usually to unfuck their errors.

I would emphasize that anyone competing at a national, continental, or world championship in any one-design class READ EVERY PAGE IN THE FUCKING RULES. As in this case, they're usually quite clear, and usually pretty short.
 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
3,090
822
Evanston
I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I have CEOs who sign documents without reading every word.

I would emphasize that anyone competing at a national, continental, or world championship in any one-design class READ EVERY PAGE IN THE FUCKING RULES. As in this case, they're usually quite clear, and usually pretty short.
I have literally read every word of this...... it is clear, I just didn't reach the proper conclusion.
Humans are very good at allowing documents to confirm their prior understanding.
 

MR.CLEAN

Moderator
I have literally read every word of this...... it is clear, I just didn't reach the proper conclusion.
Humans are very good at allowing documents to confirm their prior understanding.
There is no way to read "The driver shall hold a valid Group 1 Categorization" and come to any conclusion except "I need to get a valid Group 1 Categorization before driving a J/70." It's not some kind of complicated legalese.

Like many, you flipped through it or scanned it but did not process all the information.
 

JohnMB

Super Anarchist
3,090
822
Evanston
There is no way to read "The driver shall hold a valid Group 1 Categorization" and come to any conclusion except "I need to get a valid Group 1 Categorization before driving a J/70." It's not some kind of complicated legalese.

Like many, you flipped through it or scanned it but did not process all the information.
I agree:

I would say I read it but did not process as it was irrelevant to me, maybe my brain mentally ticked that I had my classification, so put it in the ignore bucket.

Unlike you I make errors, and admit to them :).
 

Howler

Animal control officer
599
589
I mean, this is the first thing that pops up. Seems pretty clear and only took 8 minutes to read the FAQ, which seems to answer most questions. I'd also emphasize that WS's classification staff is pretty good about responding to calls and emails. It's a fucked up org but this department is well run.

The narrative / pedagogical structure of that document is just awful. If it started by laying out the actual principles rather than launching into definitions and FAQs, it would be a lot easier to parse. And the logic is abysmal
Q. Is a sailor who is paid to teach or coach racing Group 3?
A. (a) Yes if they are a Group 3 and have been paid for work that includes the coaching
of:
so you're group 3 if you're group 3 and (some other condition).
 



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