bloodshot
Super Anarchist
seems pretty simple to me. if you don't like sailing against pros, don't buy a boat whose class association allows pros.
Keep Your Pros on the Dock
- Thread starter BrightAyes
- Start date
not a sock
New member
OK, I read all 3+ pages of this. So now I am going to call myself a "Pro" on this topic. My Professional suggestion is...HARDEN THE FUCK UP!
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Banned
- Banned
- #64
But if you invite your friend who's good enough to be a pro, but he happens to be independently wealthy and wont accept your $ or reimbursements, and then you win with him, you're a hero because you did it w/ amateurs? Again, such dumb logic, above.
Putting together a winning program takes talent, and much time and $$$$. Having a few hired hands involved aint chickenshit at all, it keeps people employed in the marine industry, it keeps boat yards solvent, keeps sail makers busy, keeps start lines filled with yachts in good working order that are sailed well and safely. Telling this segment of the sport to fuck off is petulant, short-cited, ignorant and at its heart is based on a sour-grapes mentality / inferiority complex.
Putting together a winning program takes talent, and much time and $$$$. Having a few hired hands involved aint chickenshit at all, it keeps people employed in the marine industry, it keeps boat yards solvent, keeps sail makers busy, keeps start lines filled with yachts in good working order that are sailed well and safely. Telling this segment of the sport to fuck off is petulant, short-cited, ignorant and at its heart is based on a sour-grapes mentality / inferiority complex.
People who bitch about pro crews are the same people who brake check the guy behind them in the left lane when they're doing 5 under the speed limit.
If you don't want to sail against the best, don't. Simple as. But don't complain that you're getting your ass beat when all you're doing is complaining about other people being more invested and spending more time on the water than you. To echo others, HTFU or try another sport.
If you don't want to sail against the best, don't. Simple as. But don't complain that you're getting your ass beat when all you're doing is complaining about other people being more invested and spending more time on the water than you. To echo others, HTFU or try another sport.
I think this comment may be the result of a misunderstanding of how the top crews operate in one design racing.
I only know a small subset of racing, but what I observe in the J70 fleet is the top sailors will employ pros to increase the amount of time they can spend on the water sailing with a consistent crew. No-one is getting into the top 10 of a national level regatta 'just' because they have pros on the boat, they are getting there because they have pulled a team together and trained with that team (frequently over several years) to be at the top of the class. And this is something that is substantially harder to do if you have a Corinthian crew.
There's nothing chickenshit about those crews, and generally their primary interest is racing against other crews who have put the same amount of time and effort into their sailing. Having a pro on board for a developing helm (like me) would probably results in a big change in my results(because I still have plenty to learn) but it wouldn't get me onto the podium
In other classes I race the pros are typically just part of the fleet, they happen to be Cat3 but they are not necessarily a dominant force.
Now if what you are imagining is a class or event where an owner, by pulling in a pros is basically bringing a gun to a knife fight, then sure that is kinda chickenshit, but I haven't personally seen that happening. Do you have any specific examples?
BrightAyes
Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #67
you're sounding like my wifey now...
BrightAyes
Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #68
yeah, my local club on handicap racing. Been going on for decades. Let's just say the offending skippers win/won WAY more than they should had it just been them on the helmI think this comment may be the result of a misunderstanding of how the top crews operate in one design racing.
I only know a small subset of racing, but what I observe in the J70 fleet is the top sailors will employ pros to increase the amount of time they can spend on the water sailing with a consistent crew. No-one is getting into the top 10 of a national level regatta 'just' because they have pros on the boat, they are getting there because they have pulled a team together and trained with that team (frequently over several years) to be at the top of the class. And this is something that is substantially harder to do if you have a Corinthian crew.
There's nothing chickenshit about those crews, and generally their primary interest is racing against other crews who have put the same amount of time and effort into their sailing. Having a pro on board for a developing helm (like me) would probably results in a big change in my results(because I still have plenty to learn) but it wouldn't get me onto the podium
In other classes I race the pros are typically just part of the fleet, they happen to be Cat3 but they are not necessarily a dominant force.
Now if what you are imagining is a class or event where an owner, by pulling in a pros is basically bringing a gun to a knife fight, then sure that is kinda chickenshit, but I haven't personally seen that happening. Do you have any specific examples?
Then you need to deal with this as a local issue,
its not a global issue.
So, you now want to handicap not just the boats, but those who race on them? And you want to make it harder for the people who are probably the largest contributors to the sport to race?
"Sorry, you're too good. You can't race in the club anymore because someone paid you."
I bet that'll really serve to pull in people to the club.
I bet every professional in the sport that reads this thread is shaking their heads and laughing their asses off.
"Sorry, you're too good. You can't race in the club anymore because someone paid you."
I bet that'll really serve to pull in people to the club.
I bet every professional in the sport that reads this thread is shaking their heads and laughing their asses off.
Have you asked the "pro"s why they tacked/gybed when they did? Or why they started at the pin? Have you tried to learn from them or are you just bitching behind your screen...
I think there's a legitimate question to be asked as to whether any particular behavior increases of reduced participation. And there are so many different types of sailing club that this is certainly not a one size fits all issue.
I think in a club where most sailors do not travel to race it is easy to see that having one owner bring in a pro for the club championship could result in other sailors deciding not to take part, and that should probably be avoided.
BrightAyes
Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #73
Bingo. Non-traveling local yocals should not have to compete with a pro in local racing. That's silly IMHO.
BrightAyes
Anarchist
- Thread starter
- #74
Would, but they never bother to stick around and share a beer nor knowledge. They do their gig and leave. BTW these are walk-on/walk-off types. For them it ain't about the sharing and caring. It's about a double bullet once a month.
And as noted that is a local issue to deal with as local fleet.
And the key criteria should always be the effect on participation.
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Banned
- Banned
- #76
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Look at all the pro teams that lost to corinthian teams, and also see all the top pros that couldn't even sniff the top 5 in a single race in this event? Goes to show that a lot more goes into winning than just having a couple pros on board!
knh555
Member
- 286
- 292
Personally, I've learned a lot sailing against and with some of these guys. I've also felt outgunned and wondered why I even bothered to show up. I wouldn't want to ban them, but I'm sailing mostly double-handed, so it's more about sailing against top-tier teams, not against an owner with a "stacked" boat. As mentioned above, either situation may help or hurt participation in our sport depending on context (e.g. which class, level of event, etc.)
So it seems that there are situations where having pros aboard to "buy" results looks bad and situations where bitching about pros being on the course looks bad. As usual, we having this bitching and trash talking aimed back and forth at each other with very little effort to listen to others' perspectives. What a great look for our sport.
So it seems that there are situations where having pros aboard to "buy" results looks bad and situations where bitching about pros being on the course looks bad. As usual, we having this bitching and trash talking aimed back and forth at each other with very little effort to listen to others' perspectives. What a great look for our sport.
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