Keep Your Pros on the Dock

[Howler]

Telling this segment of the sport to fuck off is petulant, short-cited, ignorant and at its heart is based on a sour-grapes mentality / inferiority complex

I suspect that historically it's not based on a sour-grapes mentality or inferiority complex, but instead on class issues. Historically, rich yacht owners and people who work in the marine trades were drawn from very different segments of society, and a kind of "if we let those grubby blue collar types onto our boats, next thing they'll be wanting to walk into the clubhouse through the members' entrance, and who wants that?" ethos may have been in play.

 

[Sisu3360]

This is an area that needs more research.

 

[knh555]

So the breathalyzer becomes required equipment eh? Does that count as an electronic device?

 

[DryArmour]

The problem is not the pro-bros. The problem is the owners who hire the pro-bros. The only way to stop the behavior, and its ill-effects on the sport, is to outlaw it. Local clubs would be a good start. Clubs could publish their racing bylaws that included a statement "Professional Category 3 sailors are not allowed to race upon any boat competing in a club-sponsored event". That simple.

The One Design class can do the same as well. Coaches can coach all they want right up to the start. Once the race begins, the "No_pro" rule should kick in.

Pros can earn their day-rate in OTW training before or after the regatta. They can provide dockside debriefs, videos, advice, et., just not onboard a competing vessel during competition.

I respectfully disagree. Having one pro on board that can help make each of your team members better is good for the sport. Maybe limit it to a ratio of one to seven. When I was younger, being able to sail with Robbie Haines, Peter Isler, Mark Christensen (Crusty), Stu Argo, Stan Honey, Steve Flam (Who may or may not be a pro), and too many Pro Bowmen to name, I ALWAYS* learned something from each of them on every leg of the course. The regular, non paid crew on the SC 70 Evolution, The Pendragon Syndicate, among other programs I was lucky enough to sail with almost always improved with a Pro on board. Incidentally, these were not primadonna Pros. They were often the first person at the boat and one of the last ones to leave after stowing gear, hosing down, and cleaning up. Just my $.02. Your mileage may vary.

 

[BrightAyes]

So the breathalyzer becomes required equipment eh? Does that count as an electronic device?

You're talking historical era and top of the pile programs. Things have changed. Now we got a cadre of semi-pros who race 200+ days a year for wealthy owners who have multiple boats on both coasts in multiple fleets. I can think of several I've had the pleasure of sailing against in J70, Viper, J22, J80 and Melges fleets. Several own a boat in most classes, with some running multiple copies of the same boat to reduce transit times. One of these owners even bled down to a local RS 21 fleet regatta that was meant for the locals to compete. He shows up with two pros and a charter boat. All for yet-another-pickle dish.

I don't shame/blame the pros. Who in their right mind would not wanna hop a flight to a paid gig with top shelf program? Meanwhile, 40,000 feet below in fly over country is a fleet of mortals dragging their part-time campaigns them behind in a worn out truck hoping the engine don't blow. That's today's reality for most corinthians.

 

[crashtack]

You're talking historical era and top of the pile programs. Things have changed. Now we got a cadre of semi-pros who race 200+ days a year for wealthy owners who have multiple boats on both coasts in multiple fleets. I can think of several I've had the pleasure of sailing against in J70, Viper, J22, J80 and Melges fleets. Several own a boat in most classes, with some running multiple copies of the same boat to reduce transit times. One of these owners even bled down to a local RS 21 fleet regatta that was meant for the locals to compete. He shows up with two pros and a charter boat. All for yet-another-pickle dish.

I don't shame/blame the pros. Who in their right mind would not wanna hop a flight to a paid gig with top shelf program? Meanwhile, 40,000 feet below in fly over country is a fleet of mortals dragging their part-time campaigns them behind in a worn out truck hoping the engine don't blow. That's today's reality for most corinthians.

What is your end goal here? You think J70s are going to suddenly become corithian after reading your posts? Owners in class-3 allowed classes are going to stop hiring pros?
If the rules allow for an advantage to be gained, people are going to take it. Simple as. If you have a problem with professionals, the answer is to sail in Corinthian fleets. There are plenty of them. You even posted a great example of one (M15s) two pages ago - go compete in it! What is the point of whining on here when you've answered your own complaint?

I'm a corinthian, I've raced (and lost) against pros countless times. I've also won against pros, olympians, sailGP sailors. They're not some sort of superhuman machines utilizing sorcery or dark magic. They simply have more refined techniques, better tactics, better strategy - all things that are observable on the dock and race course and that can be used to make one a better sailor if one chooses to pay attention instead of yelling at passing clouds

 

[Marty Gingras]

You're talking historical era and top of the pile programs. Things have changed. Now we got a cadre of semi-pros who race 200+ days a year for wealthy owners who have multiple boats on both coasts in multiple fleets. I can think of several I've had the pleasure of sailing against in J70, Viper, J22, J80 and Melges fleets. Several own a boat in most classes, with some running multiple copies of the same boat to reduce transit times. One of these owners even bled down to a local RS 21 fleet regatta that was meant for the locals to compete. He shows up with two pros and a charter boat. All for yet-another-pickle dish.

I don't shame/blame the pros. Who in their right mind would not wanna hop a flight to a paid gig with top shelf program? Meanwhile, 40,000 feet below in fly over country is a fleet of mortals dragging their part-time campaigns them behind in a worn out truck hoping the engine don't blow. That's today's reality for most corinthians.

Serious question: Why do you race?

 

[knh555]

You're talking historical era and top of the pile programs. Things have changed. Now we got a cadre of semi-pros who race 200+ days a year for wealthy owners who have multiple boats on both coasts in multiple fleets. I can think of several I've had the pleasure of sailing against in J70, Viper, J22, J80 and Melges fleets. Several own a boat in most classes, with some running multiple copies of the same boat to reduce transit times. One of these owners even bled down to a local RS 21 fleet regatta that was meant for the locals to compete. He shows up with two pros and a charter boat. All for yet-another-pickle dish.

I don't shame/blame the pros. Who in their right mind would not wanna hop a flight to a paid gig with top shelf program? Meanwhile, 40,000 feet below in fly over country is a fleet of mortals dragging their part-time campaigns them behind in a worn out truck hoping the engine don't blow. That's today's reality for most corinthians.

You do know I was joking about the breathalyzer and poking fun at the Electronic thread, right?

 

[BrightAyes]

Serious question: Why do you race?

Last I looked in Monterey Bay (Jan 23) the sailing club was down to like two capable trailer boats and nothing else. When I was last there a decade ago, you could walk up and hop on a boat and race. The drastic decline ain't a local phenonmenon, it's national. The opportunities to sail/race casually are rapidly shrinking. Why? Lot's of reason that have been discussed ad nauseum. Which brings us to this: are pros onboard good or bad for class participation? I argue they're good for the rich owners that hire them and not much else. Sure, we've all heard the chalk talk they provide under an A/P. We've bought em drinks, bought their sails and slapped their backs. I've even seen a shitty Corinithian program climb into the top 5 ranks by adding a committed pro and anting up for newer boats, twice. The POP! The budget burst, the owner got tired of the rat race and BAM one less boat in the fleet now. It's an arms race most cannot and will not buy into. And yes, the Melges 15 has seen plenty of former Corinthians keel boat skippers buy into the program. Why? Cuz the can afford it. It's fun and the Pros are left at the dock (so far).

Prove me wrong.

 

[crashtack]

Presenting unsubstantiated, anecdotal speculation as fact and then bookending it with "prove me wrong." Nah, that's not how this works.

 

[[email protected]]

Last I looked in Monterey Bay (Jan 23) the sailing club was down to like two capable trailer boats and nothing else. When I was last there a decade ago, you could walk up and hop on a boat and race. The drastic decline ain't a local phenonmenon, it's national. The opportunities to sail/race casually are rapidly shrinking. Why? Lot's of reason that have been discussed ad nauseum. Which brings us to this: are pros onboard good or bad for class participation? I argue they're good for the rich owners that hire them and not much else. Sure, we've all heard the chalk talk they provide under an A/P. We've bought em drinks, bought their sails and slapped their backs. I've even seen a shitty Corinithian program climb into the top 5 ranks by adding a committed pro and anting up for newer boats, twice. The POP! The budget burst, the owner got tired of the rat race and BAM one less boat in the fleet now. It's an arms race most cannot and will not buy into. And yes, the Melges 15 has seen plenty of former Corinthians keel boat skippers buy into the program. Why? Cuz the can afford it. It's fun and the Pros are left at the dock (so far).

Prove me wrong.

Muppet.

 

[knh555]

Last I looked in Monterey Bay (Jan 23) the sailing club was down to like two capable trailer boats and nothing else. When I was last there a decade ago, you could walk up and hop on a boat and race. The drastic decline ain't a local phenonmenon, it's national. The opportunities to sail/race casually are rapidly shrinking. Why? Lot's of reason that have been discussed ad nauseum. Which brings us to this: are pros onboard good or bad for class participation? I argue they're good for the rich owners that hire them and not much else. Sure, we've all heard the chalk talk they provide under an A/P. We've bought em drinks, bought their sails and slapped their backs. I've even seen a shitty Corinithian program climb into the top 5 ranks by adding a committed pro and anting up for newer boats, twice. The POP! The budget burst, the owner got tired of the rat race and BAM one less boat in the fleet now. It's an arms race most cannot and will not buy into. And yes, the Melges 15 has seen plenty of former Corinthians keel boat skippers buy into the program. Why? Cuz the can afford it. It's fun and the Pros are left at the dock (so far).

Prove me wrong.

Sailing participation is down in parts of the country with little pro presence too. You yourself point out that it's national and there are plenty of dying fleets that never really had pros around. That would imply something else is driving this even if you're right that pro presence drives some people away in your localized observation.

 

[bloodshot]

I've sailed in a few NA/National level regattas with pros and they always seem to shake out in two ways: Pros that are there solely to improve race results, and pros that are there to coach your crew up .

In my experience, the best times we had with a pro was when they were there to help us improve. The better scores came as a result or improved teamwork and good coaching.

Anyone expecting better results magically coming just by having a pro onboard is wasting their money, IMO.

 

[BrightAyes]

Presenting unsubstantiated, anecdotal speculation as fact and then bookending it with "prove me wrong." Nah, that's not how this works.

OK. Let's see what the AI_Bot says in regards to my comment. Enough emotional responses. Let's Ask the Bot:

It is unfortunate to hear about the decline in casual sailing and racing opportunities in Monterey Bay and across the country. There may be various reasons for this, including changes in lifestyle and interests, economic factors, and the rising cost of sailing and owning boats.

Regarding the presence of professional sailors in sailing and racing, it is understandable that there are differing opinions on their impact. On one hand, professional sailors can bring a high level of skill and knowledge to a race and may provide valuable coaching and mentorship to less experienced sailors. They may also help to attract sponsorship and media attention to sailing events.

On the other hand, as you mentioned, the involvement of professional sailors can create an arms race where only the wealthiest owners can afford to compete at the highest level. This can lead to a decrease in participation from amateur sailors and smaller programs.

Ultimately, it is up to each sailing community and class to determine the balance they wish to strike between professional and amateur involvement in their sport. It is important to ensure that there are still opportunities for casual sailors to participate and enjoy the sport without feeling priced out or overshadowed by professional teams.

Mr. I Robot

 

[jhc]

Last I looked in Monterey Bay (Jan 23) the sailing club was down to like two capable trailer boats and nothing else. When I was last there a decade ago, you could walk up and hop on a boat and race. The drastic decline ain't a local phenonmenon, it's national. The opportunities to sail/race casually are rapidly shrinking. Why? Lot's of reason that have been discussed ad nauseum. Which brings us to this: are pros onboard good or bad for class participation? I argue they're good for the rich owners that hire them and not much else. Sure, we've all heard the chalk talk they provide under an A/P. We've bought em drinks, bought their sails and slapped their backs. I've even seen a shitty Corinithian program climb into the top 5 ranks by adding a committed pro and anting up for newer boats, twice. The POP! The budget burst, the owner got tired of the rat race and BAM one less boat in the fleet now. It's an arms race most cannot and will not buy into. And yes, the Melges 15 has seen plenty of former Corinthians keel boat skippers buy into the program. Why? Cuz the can afford it. It's fun and the Pros are left at the dock (so far).

Prove me wrong.

"Looked in Monterey Bay"? I'm guessing MPYC.
Santa Cruz Yacht Club, sail boat racing is doing quite well.
Don't lump those two clubs together. Very different cultures.

 

[maxstaylock]

Always feel a bit sorry for the guys who need an all pro crew to win, it's like saying, 'I have no friends, and have to buy trophies because I have a tiny penis'. (cough Dragon cough). That said, I have no problem sharing a course with pros, most of them are passionate sailors who help promote the sport, raise the game, and brighten up the scene for everyone.

 

[BrightAyes]

Always feel a bit sorry for the guys who need an all pro crew to win, it's like saying, 'I have no friends, and have to buy trophies because I have a tiny penis'. (cough Dragon cough). That said, I have no problem sharing a course with pros, most of them are passionate sailors who help promote the sport, raise the game, and brighten up the scene for everyone.

Blame the owners, not the pros? Yeah. I sorta buy that attitude.

 

[duncan (the other one)]

The results beg to differ.

Sure - on average the ex rings and pro sailors are betterthan the top corinthians.

It ultimately boils down to attitude and time spent sailing/training - check out people like Nick Craig in the UK.

 

[Curious2]

Who in their right mind would not wanna hop a flight to a paid gig with top shelf program?

Anyone who doesn't need the money, who wants to sail for themselves, who doesn't want the added responsibility that comes with being paid for results, and perhaps most importantly doesn't want to be on a boat with a driver who is so slow they need to pay for good people to be with them.

 

[Marty Gingras]

Last I looked in Monterey Bay (Jan 23) the sailing club was down to like two capable trailer boats and nothing else. When I was last there a decade ago, you could walk up and hop on a boat and race.

You're no doubt talking about Monterey rather than Moss Landing or Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz is and always has been booming, in part due to the weather and close proximity to SF Bay area.

Monterey is tiny, pretty cold, and pretty distant. Participation ebbs and flows based in largest part on military, the general economy, and the presence (hopefully) or absence of a few rich guys who race. COVID hurt participation big time, because folks here tend to be old and careful.

When I started here in the '80s, the participation 'complaint' was that the 3-4 racing Santa Cruz 50s cannibalized one design and small PHRF. The Shields fleet then is about the same size as now (12-14), but had to be rebuilt from a low of 4 about a decade ago. PHRF is for sure down, with about 15 boats actively competing.

Our problem is lack of crew not lack of boats or eager owners. The local colleges, University, and Clubs are working hard to recruit juniors, lower-income young adults, and adults. It's paying off but there is a long way to go and it'll never be like Santa Cruz.

The drastic decline ain't a local phenonmenon, it's national. The opportunities to sail/race casually are rapidly shrinking. Why? Lot's of reason that have been discussed ad nauseum. Which brings us to this: are pros onboard good or bad for class participation?

Pros have been neutral-to-good for participation here. They've absolutely upped the game of those who cared to learn and were teachable. Pros are relatively abundant out of Santa Cruz and racing is great there.

Let me ask again @BrightAyes, why do you race? This is important, because many of us are having a hard time teasing apart your stated concern about participation from your heavy emphasis on your own race results.