Keep Your Pros on the Dock

[Curious2]

I suspect that historically it's not based on a sour-grapes mentality or inferiority complex, but instead on class issues. Historically, rich yacht owners and people who work in the marine trades were drawn from very different segments of society, and a kind of "if we let those grubby blue collar types onto our boats, next thing they'll be wanting to walk into the clubhouse through the members' entrance, and who wants that?" ethos may have been in play.

Actually, the historical record indicates that the class issue worked the other way around in many places. The rich of the 1800s, for example, were not fools. Many of them appreciated getting to know the "common people", and sailing allowed them to do that. I think it may be the letters between Herreshoffs where it was said that the Iselins, for example, were encouraged to sail sandbaggers because their father thought it was important for them to get to know the "commoners". The same was said around Sydney, where (despite persistent bullshit about the "skiffs" being the working class boat and the yachts being for the rich) both rich and working class raced skiff types together, and said that it was a good thing to mix the social classes.

In the 1890s, the UK's Yachting World featured a monthly section on a pro. There's nothing in those articles that implies that they are "grubby blue collar types". Many accounts of the time, like autobiography of pro skipper Diaper, show that the pros weren't particularly downtrodden.

While there was certainly a social divide, whether it was much bigger than that of today is another issue. I've sailed with some very arrogant owners who treated their crew no better than the typical paid hand of the Victorian era was treated, and reading something like Ben Ainslie's encounter with Hasso Plattner it seems that even he has received the same sort of treatment (or worse).

It's interesting that the excellent "Southern Breezes", a history of NZ sailing, says that the dinghy classes in very egalitarian New Zealand repeatedly fell apart in the early 1900s era because of the fact that pros won everything.

As someone who was effectively chucked out of a class I loved when they brought in "pro" restrictions, they seem to be reasonable. The typical sailor with a 9-5 job can't normally compete with a pro. Arguably, having no chance because you can't train as much is similar to having no chance because the other guy has a boat four times the cost and 25% lighter. We accept restrictions that reduce the financial cost required to be competitive and restrictions that reduce the time cost required to be competitive aren't vastly different.

The fact that the AC pros accept that time limits on practise are required for the good of the class is interesting. If they accept that limits on practice time in a class are reasonable, why can't "lesser" pros?

 

[markwbird]

I think this comment may be the result of a misunderstanding of how the top crews operate in one design racing.

I only know a small subset of racing, but what I observe in the J70 fleet is the top sailors will employ pros to increase the amount of time they can spend on the water sailing with a consistent crew. No-one is getting into the top 10 of a national level regatta 'just' because they have pros on the boat, they are getting there because they have pulled a team together and trained with that team (frequently over several years) to be at the top of the class. And this is something that is substantially harder to do if you have a Corinthian crew.

There's nothing chickenshit about those crews, and generally their primary interest is racing against other crews who have put the same amount of time and effort into their sailing. Having a pro on board for a developing helm (like me) would probably results in a big change in my results(because I still have plenty to learn) but it wouldn't get me onto the podium

In other classes I race the pros are typically just part of the fleet, they happen to be Cat3 but they are not necessarily a dominant force.

Now if what you are imagining is a class or event where an owner, by pulling in a pros is basically bringing a gun to a knife fight, then sure that is kinda chickenshit, but I haven't personally seen that happening. Do you have any specific examples?

I'm talking about paying a pro who is not part of your regular crew to join your crew for a specific race. Yes, I have heard of this being done but I will not give examples.

 

[markwbird]

But if you invite your friend who's good enough to be a pro, but he happens to be independently wealthy and wont accept your $ or reimbursements, and then you win with him, you're a hero because you did it w/ amateurs? Again, such dumb logic, above.

Putting together a winning program takes talent, and much time and $$$$. Having a few hired hands involved aint chickenshit at all, it keeps people employed in the marine industry, it keeps boat yards solvent, keeps sail makers busy, keeps start lines filled with yachts in good working order that are sailed well and safely. Telling this segment of the sport to fuck off is petulant, short-cited, ignorant and at its heart is based on a sour-grapes mentality / inferiority complex.

When you use a far fetched hypothetical to argue that someone else's logic is dumb . .

 

[[email protected]]

When you use a far fetched hypothetical to argue that someone else's logic is dumb . .

far fetched for you, apparently

 

[Curious2]

Participation ebbs and flows based in largest part on military, the general economy, and the presence (hopefully) or absence of a few rich guys who race.

Our problem is lack of crew not lack of boats or eager owners. The local colleges, University, and Clubs are working hard to recruit juniors, lower-income young adults, and adults. It's paying off but there is a long way to go and it'll never be like Santa Cruz.

Wow, I don't think any club of the size of Monterey would pay to have pros here in Australia. Some of the small-club locals may go off and be pros in major events elsewhere on other big boats (which indicates that the standard isn't low in all the little clubs) but paying people to sail in small country clubs is unknown as far as I am aware.

Wouldn't it discourage the juniors, lower-income young adults and others if they assume that becoming a competitive owner will probably include having to pay for a pro?

I know the lack of paid holidays in the USA is probably a major factor in the decision to turn semi-pro. It's just interesting to see the different cultures that my grandkids growing up in SF will experience compared to the sailing culture here in Australia.

 

[Mid]

Dennis Conner never been paid to sail

for those whose head it went over ...

 

[Curious2]

Putting together a winning program takes talent, and much time and $$$$. Having a few hired hands involved aint chickenshit at all, it keeps people employed in the marine industry, it keeps boat yards solvent, keeps sail makers busy, keeps start lines filled with yachts in good working order that are sailed well and safely. Telling this segment of the sport to fuck off is petulant, short-cited, ignorant and at its heart is based on a sour-grapes mentality / inferiority complex.

But the sport and industry were much bigger when there were fewer pros, and the sport is (per capita) much bigger and arguably more competitive in countries that seem to have far fewer pros per capita. So perhaps it's actually better for the boatyards, sailmakers and start lines to have fewer pros and more happy amateurs spending less money on paying people to sail?

 

[gullwinkle]

We have had a pro on t the Frers 36 I raced on. Bot he onlyu hooked up the spin.
I jibed end `to `end and took it down. He loved sailing with us. Not a prick at all.

 

[Tom O'Keefe]

Do you really want to exclude the most dedicated and passionate people in our sport?

When Cat 3 regs first came out I ran a boatyard. Prior to that I delivered race boats home. But, I never received a day rate for races. So, I was a Cat 3 at that time without ever having been paid to race. I was paid to prep boats, deliver and maintain boats. But, never to race. Okay, I was reimbursed for travel and rooms.

I changed careers and I've been Cat 1 for 20+years. My point is people find themselves going down the Cat 3 path because they love and have had some success early on.

I understand wanting to promote classes for teams that are not able to dedicate as much time, effort and money to motivate more newbie entries or friends and family programs. But, people that are passionate enough to dedicate their lives to sailing aren't the people we want to exclude.

Just my opinion.

 

[crashtack]

But the sport and industry were much bigger when there were fewer pros, and the sport is (per capita) much bigger and arguably more competitive in countries that seem to have far fewer pros per capita. So perhaps it's actually better for the boatyards, sailmakers and start lines to have fewer pros and more happy amateurs spending less money on paying people to sail?

 

[Curious2]

Do you think the sport wasn't bigger in the 1980s?

My sources include the fact that I have the Yachting NSW Census reports for the 1980s, for example, and I've checked the stats for individual class and club participation numbers for then and know, and total club membership.

You can add to that details like the number of boats in Cat 1/2 races here in Oz, and the number of boats racing (for example) in JOG (our equivalent of MORC, once capable of getting 30-50 boats and now long dead), the number of trailerable boats in the NSW circuit (once 100+ boats, now all but dead), the number of boats in CYCA SOPS, the number of boats in the biggest cat, windsurfer and trailerable yacht events, etc etc etc. Oh, and then there's the government's national census sport participation figures.

There is a shitload of evidence that the sport is smaller now.

 

[Marty Gingras]

Wow, I don't think any club of the size of Monterey would pay to have pros here in Australia. Some of the small-club locals may go off and be pros in major events elsewhere on other big boats (which indicates that the standard isn't low in all the little clubs) but paying people to sail in small country clubs is unknown as far as I am aware.

Something I didn't mention is that the boats --- mostly in the '80s and '90s --- that used pros didn't have many, didn't usually have them, and also did regattas in SF Bay plus coastal races. The pros were usually sailmakers and this was before the expansive Cat 3 definition of pro. We were at the time pretty loaded with many-time national champs in several classes and other rockstars, so the quality was quite high regardless...

Wouldn't it discourage the juniors, lower-income young adults and others if they assume that becoming a competitive owner will probably include having to pay for a pro?

It really didn't. I think that's in large part because not many were in it mosty for the wins. IMHO, the 'healthy' reason to race is about improving and about team work. Folks like that are very durable while the others either become famous or flame out.

I know the lack of paid holidays in the USA is probably a major factor in the decision to turn semi-pro. It's just interesting to see the different cultures that my grandkids growing up in SF will experience compared to the sailing culture here in Australia.

Not sure about that reason to turn semi-pro, but the economy and boomers aging-out are pretty clearly the major reasons for the overall decline in participation. Well, that and "kids these days..."

 

[BrightAyes]

You're no doubt talking about Monterey rather than Moss Landing or Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz is and always has been booming, in part due to the weather and close proximity to SF Bay area.

Monterey is tiny, pretty cold, and pretty distant. Participation ebbs and flows based in largest part on military, the general economy, and the presence (hopefully) or absence of a few rich guys who race. COVID hurt participation big time, because folks here tend to be old and careful.

When I started here in the '80s, the participation 'complaint' was that the 3-4 racing Santa Cruz 50s cannibalized one design and small PHRF. The Shields fleet then is about the same size as now (12-14), but had to be rebuilt from a low of 4 about a decade ago. PHRF is for sure down, with about 15 boats actively competing.

Our problem is lack of crew not lack of boats or eager owners. The local colleges, University, and Clubs are working hard to recruit juniors, lower-income young adults, and adults. It's paying off but there is a long way to go and it'll never be like Santa Cruz.



Pros have been neutral-to-good for participation here. They've absolutely upped the game of those who cared to learn and were teachable. Pros are relatively abundant out of Santa Cruz and racing is great there.

Let me ask again @BrightAyes, why do you race? This is important, because many of us are having a hard time teasing apart your stated concern about participation from your heavy emphasis on your own race results.

Let me tell you why: cuz racing's a GD addiction I developed 40 years ago. It's an itch you scratch anyway you can: fingernail or coat hanger. Nothing better than couple hours on the water with friends to compete. My problem is common enough: been around long enough to see the fleets fade from 50 boats to 10 now on a good day. We know all the reasons. We celebrate the imaginative ways people try to Save Sailing, like the 2+women fleets, the women at the helm fleets and the get your ASA 101 buddies out to fly a spinnaker.

I have personally owned more than a dozen differents monos and catamorons. Dabble in one design on couple fleets and plenty of usual PHRF action. I've trained, sailed with and lost more crew than I care to admit (well north of 200+) in those years. I've noted that 5 years is about the max anyone stays with the sport unless they were born into it. I started late @30 and now decades on, keep going back to the well hoping for another speed-junkie fix. I'm 8X the average staying power in longevity. I've traded boats and swapped continents with German and Chilean crews so we could visit and sail one another's boats as Corinthians without all the shipping expense. It's been a very long very hard and very memorable ride.

I spent a year during Covid putting together a crew of absolute green wannabees from Canada, North Carolina, Alabama and Arizona. We raced 4 regattas in 3 weeks in two countries and one state. We first met at our meeting points and the first time on the boat for all of them was on the way to the start line of a fairly major event. Camped and low-lifed our way around that summer having a ball. I was more than two to three times their ages, but we jelled fine. Still exchange the occasional social media message, so not like we hated the experience.

One summer I raced on the Gorge with my German crew. I drove the boat across 2500 miles of backroad highways solo over 5 days to get there. Next day I drove another 100 to pick the Krauts up at PDX. We raced a Nationals and had the usual bag of bad luck but sorted it out and finished not last. We slept in tents next to train tracks and camp food and loved it. When time came, we reversed the process and I drove the Germans back to PDX and then another 2500 miles home, solo. 10 days of driving, 5 days racing and lifetime of memories. So yeah, I'm a little envious when a pro/bro flys in and does their trick and flys out. Same with the Daddy Warbucks who floats the whole gig.

What's this all got to do with you or anyone else? Well, truth be told, lots or little, depending on your perspective. I admire the hell outta people who make something from nothing, like Patriot Sailing, who begs, borrows or steals what they need to get war-worry veterans on the water as a team in competitive fleets. They don't have any Oakcliff Sailing like benefactors ponying up the millions to run a large organization. They just organize and fund raise at the local levels and yet they get dozens of veterans sailing on both coasts. Not a rock star among them, much less a pro. Yes, they finish last most time, but come back and improve with nothing more than determination and grunt work.

So in the end, do pros help or hurt the sport? You decide. For me, they're great resources on the dock and in the club house or on training sail onboard. They have every right to make a living doing what they love and good at. I don't particularily like trying to line up with them with a crew of new recruits while the pro is screaming about room rights to impress his owner. I especially don't care for screaming owners, who by right of their almighty dollar, think you owe them every duck and dodge cuz you're somehow not as righteous as they.

Rant over and Editor owes me some swag for stirring the pot and his IP hits from keyboard warriors. Carry on.

 

[The Dark Knight]

Is this thread related to this?

Phuket Raceweek

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forums.sailinganarchy.com

No need to leave your pros on the dock as PRW is cancelled for 2023

 

[JMOD]

in the 8mR Class, there was an owner who had 2 8's, and happened to be commodore of a yachtclub that hosted an AC team, which was in full fledge training in the ACv5's (they happened to win the AC after that) so the team was quite nicely put together. so the owner gave the to him more crappy boat to the AC team, who handily won from everybody, including all modern 8's.

there was an outcry about this in the class, but our then president nipt it in the bud stating (not his exact words, but the words come close enough):
"off course they are going to win. they were the fastest boats. For the rest of us, mere mortals, it is a remembrance of what these boats can do and what we as a sailor can do.
In Other sports, people pay good money to play a round of tennis with Roger Federer, or a round of golf with Tiger Woods. Here we have the opportunity to sail against the very best. These guys were at the bar in the yachtclub everyday, and all you have to do is ask and they would tell you the why, what and how of what they did and are even happy to help set up boats with you. And if you try your best, you can beat them and feel very good about yourself."

indeed, they did help competitors during that week on how to set up the boat and were generous in sharing their knowledge. By the way, most of the pro's i sailed with over the years are mostly very helpful and wanting the best competition, so they shared information.

 

[dogwatch]

And how is the 8m class doing at that club today? Genuine question,

 

[shaggybaxter]

Serious question: Why do you race?

I race because I enjoy the competition and the teamwork.
I really don't mind if every other boat had pros, or the number of pros on board. That just makes the competition more challenging, and if you do well, then even more rewarding. I've passed boats with pros like they're standing still, then been dealt the same in return the very next race. Racing is all about bettering yourself and improving your craft, pickle dishes don't change that.
If winning was the only motivator then my attitude might be different.

 

[Mid]

If winning was the only motivator then my attitude might be different.

1st of the losers ....

 

[nolatom]

Just sail round the buoys races. And know your local weather. The pro goes right, counting on wind going right. You think the opposite, and go left.
The wind goes left. You win.

Thank me later ;-)

 

[JMOD]

And how is the 8m class doing at that club today? Genuine question,

quite well. 8mr class is growing rapidly now. that local fleet has 2 new boats, but in general, over the last 2 years, 18 yachts have been bought by owners bringing them back. there are currently 3 teams full of old 12mR AC members racing, so the level has gone up as well as other enthusiasts restoring boats. 3 boats have gone to daughters of older members, whereas one of those members is now restoring another 8mr for himself. Also yachts that were not active for a while have come back and will race in Genoa. so the class is active and growing, and local fleets are also growing in general interest.

Though there is a slight split visible, with the moderns tending to go more to north America, and the classics to Europe. This year's worldcup is in Genoa, after that the Clyde, Scotland, then finland (Turku) and after that i believe Sodus Bay is putting in a request for hosting the worldcup.