Keep Your Pros on the Dock

[Marty Gingras]

Let me tell you why: cuz racing's a GD addiction I developed 40 years ago. It's an itch you scratch anyway you can: fingernail or coat hanger. Nothing better than couple hours on the water with friends to compete.

Thanks. I see now that you are part of the solution rather than part of the problem. We'll have to agree to disagree on the impact of pros.

 

[dogwatch]

quite well. 8mr class is growing rapidly now.

Thanks, I saw some at the 2007 Metre Classes regattas at Cowes. Lovely looking boats. I was lucky enough to get on a 1930s 6m, which was a memorable experience.

 

[Curious2]

Something I didn't mention is that the boats --- mostly in the '80s and '90s --- that used pros didn't have many, didn't usually have them, and also did regattas in SF Bay plus coastal races. The pros were usually sailmakers and this was before the expansive Cat 3 definition of pro. We were at the time pretty loaded with many-time national champs in several classes and other rockstars, so the quality was quite high regardless...

It really didn't. I think that's in large part because not many were in it mosty for the wins. IMHO, the 'healthy' reason to race is about improving and about team work. Folks like that are very durable while the others either become famous or flame out.

Not sure about that reason to turn semi-pro, but the economy and boomers aging-out are pretty clearly the major reasons for the overall decline in participation. Well, that and "kids these days..."

Ah, that makes sense, particularly the sort of pros and the sort of races they were in.

Agree about the "healthy" reason to race, but for many amateurs the gap between their achievable performance and the performance a good pro crew (ie current Olympians) can reach means that a genuine improvement is hard to measure.

The other issue is that many people - even extremely competitive people - feel that when they are up against full-time pros it's not a level playing field, and that without a level playing field it's not worth playing. People who feel like that include guys like someone who finished 3rd in the Laser worlds before the class went Olympic and even multiple world masters champs who are now coming up against masters who are paid to sail almost full time. These guys are very successful in work and play so they can't be written off as kooks or whiners; they just feel that the unwritten rules of the game are that everyone is trying to balance a "normal" life with sailing.

When people who have been on Laser world podiums and done an America's Cup campaign feel that there is a major downside to professionalism, they can't be written off as low achieving complainers. It's a difficult question.

Down here in Australia the economy is still doing well, many boomers are very wealthy due to the huge increase in house prices, and yet the sport has still shrunk dramatically. The rising cost of participating at high level would seem to be a big factor. I know that when I was a kid, one could realistically think about having a small old offshore boat when quite young, getting your good dinghy sailing mates to sail it with you, and also being competitive at national level and mid fleet at worlds in major small-craft classes while also having a job and an average income. These days, those dreams are simply not realistic; there's no proper racing for affordable small yachts around here; your good dinghy sailing mates are getting paid to sail with rich guys; and the guys at the Laser Worlds etc are full-time sailors with all that means in parental support.

Dreams that were realistic when my generation were kids are just not realistic any more because of the rising cost of competition, and surely that's having an effect on participation.

 

[Tom O'Keefe]

In the 80's there were more boats. But, the boats were no where near as technical as the top performing boats today. So, there were more friends and family programs that were competitive. You could put together a crew of newbies with a couple guys with experience and participate. We didn't do that great against the more talent oriented club boats or the ultra elite pro teams. But, there were a lot of boats and opportunities.

I believe the the talent that helped support the friends and family programs have stayed but now race for owners that can afford the more expensive and more technical boats. And, the younger talent has found ways to fund their Olympic dinghy goals or riggers and sail makers via the same high budget programs. And, the opportunities for friends and family to be competitive have diminished.

 

[Monkey]

In case you want to see how sailing COULD be or SHOULD be, just look at the Melges 15. Below is link to their just concluded Midwinters. 60+ boats. 120+ competitors. 0 PAID PROS. Instead, you see top-shelf Corinthians, mostly young high school and collegiate sailors coming from the 420. This is top-shelf competitive sailing done in class boats for less than $20K investment. What you don't see are money-grubbing owners in the back with pros whispering what to do. You also see a fair number of women drivers and finishing in top 10. You get people from 12-72 onboard racing. This is sailing as it was and should be again.

Then sell your boat and buy a Melges 15. We’re all dying to see how well you do against amateurs!

 

[atwinda]

*shakes head* 10-15 years ago those types of sailors were still getting paid, it was just "off the books" so they could remain a group 1. Nowadays, they just lean into the group 3 and make a better living because of it. Writing group 3 sailors out of regattas will return us to an era of the pros amateurs being on the owners company payroll.

 

[Capt Araldite]

*shakes head* 10-15 years ago those types of sailors were still getting paid, it was just "off the books" so they could remain a group 1. Nowadays, they just lean into the group 3 and make a better living because of it. Writing group 3 sailors out of regattas will return us to an era of the pros amateurs being on the owners company payroll.

Have seen a few well paid “gardeners” running boats over the years 🤣🤣

 

[fboats]

its about snowflake old dudes who got stuffed into lockers as kids getting butthurt that they weren't successful enough in life to allow for funding a proper sailing program at the middle and high-ends of the sport...
...
They can cry me a fucking river about pro sailors. if a class wants pro's, that's their choice. don't like it? go race a sunfish or melges 15

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

 

[fboats]

you're sounding like my wifey now...

Hahaha! You know you're a bi@@@tch when your wife has to tell you to HTFU.

 

[Mambo Kings]

I have had a blast sailing in Sarnia at the last two Shark regattas you guys have run. It is always fun racing against the Boston's, they are a real asset to the class doing new sail development. Hope Brad is there again this year with his guys, we pushed them to the last race last year.

Hot shots and former pros and Olys? Nothing against them. They would now be beyond their prime and working as office Dilberts like the rest of us. Ban them? Hell no. That misses the point being a current working pro is spending ALL his time on the water, racing, etc. That's way different than a former something racing in club regattas as a mere mortal. Stacking the rail with well-paid young guns calling tactics, trimming sailing and getting paid for it is what is wrong.

Are you implying that Brad Boston is not a hot shot, current working pro and suggesting that he is beyond his prime?

Clearly you havent sailed against him!

@Retired BN , I 100% agree with you about Brad and Tac. I have learnt so much from racing against them over the last decade. My life has genuinely been richer for the experience. He knows how to school you and make you laugh out loud at the same time.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Then sell your boat and buy a Melges 15. We’re all dying to see how well you do against amateurs!

Noooooo.

The Melges 15 sailors want to be very clear about this. Do not foist off Blind Ayes on the M15s.

He is your problem.....deal with it/her/him yourselves.

 

[BrightAyes]

Noooooo.

The Melges 15 sailors want to be very clear about this. Do not foist off Blind Ayes on the M15s.

He is your problem.....deal with it/her/him yourselves.

Viper seems mighty appealing also...just saying....

 

[LB 15]

The problem is not the pro-bros. The problem is the owners who hire the pro-bros. The only way to stop the behavior, and its ill-effects on the sport, is to outlaw it. Local clubs would be a good start. Clubs could publish their racing bylaws that included a statement "Professional Category 3 sailors are not allowed to race upon any boat competing in a club-sponsored event". That simple.

The One Design class can do the same as well. Coaches can coach all they want right up to the start. Once the race begins, the "No_pro" rule should kick in.

Pros can earn their day-rate in OTW training before or after the regatta. They can provide dockside debriefs, videos, advice, et., just not onboard a competing vessel during competition.

Did Meli actually read a sailing magazine at the library and has started a new sock?

 

[Pollination]

Sailing is an expensive sport if you are racing. If you are cruising, it is not that cheap either. Even a small power boat costs bucks to run and store. The Canoe and Camping crowd spend big bucks on gear. Go to a Bass Pro Shop and try not to drop a few hundred on that fishing gear. Heck you can drop 100K on a boat too!

Racing is racing. If you want to fly you have to buy!

Pros are pros, they will do anything related to the sport for income. Sportscasting, no problem!

Racing on your boat, sure !

Free trips to the Med on your dime, absolutely.

Providing you with a shopping list to make your boat go faster, immediately !

Breaking your gear, overloading your rig and sails, destroying your crew's moral, guaranteed !

Heck we can build you a new one next week.

Sorry we did not win, we will get them next time !

Oh Yeah and there is a new class you should get involved in, I'll introduce you to the designer and builder, your boat is outdated.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Viper seems mighty appealing also...just saying....

The Viper 640 class keeps it very simple. Nobody is allowed to be paid (compensated) to sail on a Viper.
You cannot pay someone money to sail on a Viper
You cannot agree to hire a landscaping service, if in exchange, someone sails on your Viper
You cannot sponsor a sailing program in exchange for someone sailing on a Viper
You cannot purchase sails if in exchange the sailmaker, sails on a Viper.

BUT
Nobody is excluded on the basis of their resume and talent.

You can and should hire Brad Boston to do tactics on your Etchell, J70, Melges 20, Farr 40, TP 52......it will be a great learning experience and fun as well. The money will be well spent. If I mounted a campaign in one of those classes, Brad would be one of three guys on the planet I would reach out to, to help me get up to speed .

However, in his own time, he sails a Viper with his longtime friend Lee Shuckerow and their buddy Eric Viglass . Three outstanding sailors, doing what they love for fun. You can always find "Jackpot" on the dock because the boombox is blasting Detroit rap and there is a cooler full of rum. They will pour you a rum, give you free advice. Brad will be thrilled if you let him make you a suit of sails.(No sales pressure, just well made sails that amateurs win races with ) and if you dont have his sails, he still gives you free advice. But in this class they cant sail with you because they have their own boat to race...and this is their time , where they hang out together without a customer.

If I sailed in a class with an outright ban on pro sailors, then I would not be able to sail against Brad and Lee .....and the last 10 years of my sailing would be poorer for having missed that experience.

 

[BrightAyes]

Yes, they are all fine sailors and worthty opponents. Congratulations to Jackson for winning the Viper Worlds. Great guy. My last set of North 3DI were delivered to me by Jackson over a rita in NOLA. If you want to see what a pro like Jackson can do for your amateur program, just look back over the Melges Shaka and see how they crept up the heap over a three-boat series of improvements over five years. I think KC made it as high as top five before the burnout and bills set in. I like the Viper's class ban on pros being paid onboard. You can have them, you just can pay them. That's plenty good nuff for this whiney bitch.

 

[BrightAyes]

Sailing is an expensive sport if you are racing. If you are cruising, it is not that cheap either. Even a small power boat costs bucks to run and store. The Canoe and Camping crowd spend big bucks on gear. Go to a Bass Pro Shop and try not to drop a few hundred on that fishing gear. Heck you can drop 100K on a boat too!

Racing is racing. If you want to fly you have to buy!

Pros are pros, they will do anything related to the sport for income. Sportscasting, no problem!

Racing on your boat, sure !

Free trips to the Med on your dime, absolutely.

Providing you with a shopping list to make your boat go faster, immediately !

Breaking your gear, overloading your rig and sails, destroying your crew's moral, guaranteed !

Heck we can build you a new one next week.

Sorry we did not win, we will get them next time !

Oh Yeah and there is a new class you should get involved in, I'll introduce you to the designer and builder, your boat is outdated.

Exactly the reality.

 

[Pollination]

The best part of the day is removing all of your gear off the boat. Humm, we might need this , that can stay, uhhh I don't know about this thing, is it required to be on board?

Hey Nibnob, It would not be on board if it was not required. Oh yeah, what type of yogurt and granola did you request ?

PS the head is carbon, don't even think about it.

Now we are almost late for the start, go sleep off your hangover.

 

[Mambo Kings]

Yes, they are all fine sailors and worthty opponents. Congratulations to Jackson for winning the Viper Worlds. Great guy. My last set of North 3DI were delivered to me by Jackson over a rita in NOLA. If you want to see what a pro like Jackson can do for your amateur program, just look back over the Melges Shaka and see how they crept up the heap over a three-boat series of improvements over five years. I think KC made it as high as top five before the burnout and bills set in. I like the Viper's class ban on pros being paid onboard. You can have them, you just can pay them. That's plenty good nuff for this whiney bitch.

Jackson. Another great guy whose quality of life choice was to be a professional sailor and sail maker. So I celebrate him getting together with some of his mates from SYC and racing his own program for the Viper worlds. Even pros should be allowed some time off from sailing with customers to race for the sheer bloody joy of it.

As to the worlds, it was a battle royale between Jackson and Brad....and epic to watch. Both sailed spectacularly well, leading on different days. Jackson has had more time in his boat over the last 6 months , where Brad has not had much Viper time and took delivery of a stock Rondar boat just before the worlds. But, my goodness, Brad is a bulldog he will not let go.

They were not alone in the talent field.....when Charlie Ogletree (4 Olympic games and 1 silver medal) doesnt quite crack the top 10, then you know the field is rife with good sailors. A special shout out for Ricky Welch and the "kids" by the way. The little snot is barely 18 years old and he is a fantastic sailor, determined and confident. His goal was unabashedly a podium.....against a field of all-americans, at least one SailGP sailor, and Olympians....he was great.

I will say one thing about Brad, Jackson, Mark, Willy McBride, Jim Praley and Austin, Zak, Marek etc and the other pros and very talented amateurs at the Viper worlds......they did such a great job in sharing what they saw out there and giving hands on tips to the middle of the fleet. It was as if you were attending a master-class laid on to improve your sailing.

I fully understand, that if you are a pro at a paid regatta, its not fair to ask you for your rig tune or tips because you are being paid by a paying customer to win the regatta, not to help the competition. I really get that...and I think it is unfair to criticize pros for being loyal to their customer during a paid gig. But occasionally it is amazingly great when they can open up and share their trade craft. That happened in spades at the Viper worlds and the NAC.

 

[BrightAyes]

Agree. The problem occurs when you get a dick for an owner who shows up in every class every where with his hired guns and mops up the hardware, week in week out. Most of us don't mind getting our asses handed to us by pros doing their own gig. It's the opposite when an average Joe is wealthy and stacks his chances with pros who can all but guarantee him to win. That grates on most people