knh555
Anarchist
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Then sail boats where it’s harder to buy a win.
Keep Your Pros on the Dock
- Thread starter BrightAyes
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BrightAyes
Banned
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Nope. That's just perpetuating the issue
Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
I think my answer to that is "It depends"
If an owner is a dick, then I suspect that owner is a dick whether they have hired their crew or not......but honestly my experience of sailboat racing is that there are not many dicks around I generally like the people I have met in different classes and different corners of the sport.
Not me. If I stopped to analyze it, I would probably acknowledge that Brad, Jackson, Paul Goodison, Steve Hunt, Jimmy Spithill and many other pro sailors are better sailors than I am over the long term.....but I dont think that way at the start of a race. So if they finish ahead of me I dont stop learning from them and trying to figure out what I need to do. If you think they are going to beat you, then they will.
My thought process is that "on a good day" we can beat them, and today is a good day.
Sometimes I have to refine the thought process. For example the amended version is. "The first three days of the event were bad days BUT today is a good day!
"I get what you are saying. However, can I push back a bit. Mostly now I sail in a class where there are not paid pros and I enjoy that but I know people and classes where pros are paid to sail and I get that as well, and dont think it always diminishes the fun. Here are some reasons why I think it can be a good thing.
1. In many classes/cases it levels the playing field. The average Joe who usually finishes at the middle or back of the fleet gets a chance to improve his game by hiring a coach or tactician. It is both a learning experience and a confidence booster for Joe...and hopefully the talented and more experienced amateurs who have been winning up to now, welcome Joe into their midst vs telling him "You dont desrve to be up here"
2. Some sailors have demanding work and family lives and cannot devote as much time to sailing as they want to. One of the biggest differences between pro and amateur sailors is the amount of time they spend on the water. The owner might want to include a pro in the mix of his friends to fill that TOTW gap
3. Its part of the class. Some classes have owner driver/pro crew combinations. That is what the class is about. That is what those owners enjoy, so its fair enough in my book. If you are racing an RC 44 then you are doing that because you want to sail with pros on your boat. The J70 was a grey area but its pretty clear now that if you want to win the J70 NAC or worlds, your program is going to include pros and you know that going in. If I entered a J70 major championship, I would buy all new sails and hire Steve and Brad.....or not bother.
4. Size of the boat. I played around in some big boat handicap racing for one year. I went back to small boat one design but it was fun while it lasted. I brought along my sailing friends but I also hired 1 pro to halp us sail it and 2 additional pros while racing, because we would not have been up to it. We would have broken something or somebody. You cannot race maxis or mini maxis with an all amateur crew (unless you are John Kelly RIP)
5. Revisit #1 for a moment. Sometimes there can be a virtuous cycle in amateur sailboat racing with a mirror image downward spiral, that hiring a pro can break. The best amateur sailors and crew like to sail with the best helms. Its human nature. The less experienced owners , and possible less talented end up struggling to find really good crew. Small differences between the front of the fleet and the middle of the fleet can get exacerbated into a big gap and the middle and the back of the fleet get demotivated and leave the game. Hiring a pro gets them the same quality of crew that the front of the fleet already enjoy.
So again, my answer is "It depends"
Pros have their spots and the really need to stay in those lanes. $50k is a drop in the bucket for a J70 championship fee (think 3 weeks of practice, 2 boats, hotels, travel, etc) And you really can't sail a TP52 without pros (thye have equipment on their most of us have never seen or know how to operate/fix (think all custom halyard locks, carbon winch setups with hydro rams, etc).
But general round the buoy, weekend club racing does NOT NEED pros and anyone bringing them along is really an idiot or just doesn't get any at home! Pros need to maintain advanced equipment, train amateurs how to use equipment and how to get better in general racing. If the big bucks owner wants to show how good he is, then get a laser or some other single person boat - and THEN lets see how good he really is.
But general round the buoy, weekend club racing does NOT NEED pros and anyone bringing them along is really an idiot or just doesn't get any at home! Pros need to maintain advanced equipment, train amateurs how to use equipment and how to get better in general racing. If the big bucks owner wants to show how good he is, then get a laser or some other single person boat - and THEN lets see how good he really is.
BrightAyes
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+1. My points exactly. Pros: stay with your Daddy Warbucks in the big leagues. Leave the little keel boat fleets to us paying peons to flounder around in please.
If you're a pro and decide to buy your own boat, equip it and train with your pro bros, uncompensated, great. We're happy to welcome you to the Minor League. If you're here at the behest of Daddy Warbucks to pick up a quick trick, please do some soul searching and report back to the Majors.
BrightAyes
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Let me answer with a child's simplicity...as my then young daughter would say when she didn't like the outcome "It ain't fairya!" (emphasis on last word). 20 years later, she still keeps me grounded.
doghouse
Super Anarchist
You sound like a bitch
Marty Gingras
Mid-range Anarchist
He does, because it’s all his anecdotes. Once in a while though, he expresses a reasonable concern/thesis that decline in participation is caused by owners who bring pros when racing against regular folks. If there is evidence that he’s right, then let’s see it.
I dont doubt theres a few bitch asses that have quit the game because their fragile ass egos cant handle getting their asses handed to them by good sailors, and they can point to the pro's on the good sailors' boats and pretend thats why they lost badly... and then they can take their ball and go home. go riddance
meanwhile the rest of us will head to the yc bar after racing, buy the pros a drink and ask good questions and maybe learn a thing or 2 for next time. you see, some of us enjoy getting beaten by other sailors, as that's how you learn. sure, could easily trade down in classes and go trophy hunting, but thats no fun.
its funny, it plays out in junior sailing too-- i advise other parents to travel as far as you need to in order to find a regatta where your kid gets his ass handed to him. for some that's local, regional, nationals, worlds, etc. again, losing is where the lessons are learned, which results in improvement for next time.
meanwhile the rest of us will head to the yc bar after racing, buy the pros a drink and ask good questions and maybe learn a thing or 2 for next time. you see, some of us enjoy getting beaten by other sailors, as that's how you learn. sure, could easily trade down in classes and go trophy hunting, but thats no fun.
its funny, it plays out in junior sailing too-- i advise other parents to travel as far as you need to in order to find a regatta where your kid gets his ass handed to him. for some that's local, regional, nationals, worlds, etc. again, losing is where the lessons are learned, which results in improvement for next time.
Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
A lot of the owners who hire pro crew probably don't care how good you think they are. They are racing to have some fun in a competitive class where they like a boat with a skilled crew, either because they want to learn......or because they are already good and want to sail a well executed machine.
Very few owners pay for pro crew at a weekend , round the buoys, club race. I've never come across it. Which doesn't mean it doesn't happen but its so rare where we live that we dont see it. The J70s at MRA weekend racing (Marblehead) dont bring their pros, except in the lead up to a major event for practice.
A good friend of mine, Paul S sails his GP26 locally with an all-amateur crew and his weekend sonar with amateur club members. When he does the J70 worlds he hires Willem and Victor.....not to prove anything to anyone .....but because at big events he wants to sail at the highest standard he can sail. Decades ago, he used to be a nationally ranked Finn sailor. Business, family and other passions means he sails a fraction of the time that he used to sail but once or twice a year he likes to reach for a stretch goal and remind himself of what it is like to compete at the highest level. As one of his friends , and a competitive sailor who in a previous life has won a certain share of national and world titles, I know I cannot offer him the level of practice TOTW and perfection to allow him to be competitive. Nor can Rob Crane (former Olympian) or Will Graves (former Snipe world champion). We are rusty. So he hires Willem and Victor who do this 5 days a week, most weeks of the year and have honed their skills to a whole different level.
When I sail Vipers at weekends on LIS, I bring friends and even new comers to the class. I will share the helm frequently. When I go to a world masters championship or NAC, I will put the band back together again depending on who is available . ...unpaid sailors? yes longtime friends? yes.....but a different category to my weekend sailing. In a way the owners who hire pros are doing the same but perhaps going one step further because that is the level of the game in the class they are racing.
If Paul S sailed a Viper with an amateur crew, I bet he would still collect some scalps.
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Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
True Dat.
But
I think its the owners who decide what those lanes are, not the pros.
The pros have a job to do, checks to pin on the fridge, rent to pay and loved ones to support. They will accept jobs that are legal.
The owners have to decide what is right for their class, their club, their series....and publish clear unambiguous rules. Please let us not blame the pros for sailing in an event that allows pros.
knh555
Anarchist
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I don’t see an issue. Either sail classes with rules you accept or work through a class to amend the rules. This forum doesn’t manage the rules in your chosen boat.
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BrightAyes
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OK. This thread is dead. I will deposit this little bit of wisdom our exalted leader (aka "Editor") posted on the FP
Our opinion is that most pros are dicks, they ruin the sport for others, and are a huge cause of overspending in the big fleets. This post makes sense…
Our opinion is that most pros are dicks, they ruin the sport for others, and are a huge cause of overspending in the big fleets. This post makes sense…
Marty Gingras
Mid-range Anarchist
Stroker…
Yes, it depends, but while Rich Average Joe may benefit from hiring pros, what about Average Average Joe who can't afford figures like $50k for a J/70 regatta? How does it affect Average Average Joe's passion for the sport when RAJ, who has been finishing behind him all season, opens his wallet and is suddenly boosted up the fleet?
If the owner's wallet is going to be such a huge factor in the final places, a factor that isn't really part of the game most of us play is becoming a defining element.
If the pros make such a difference, then why do the owners get any kudos? If the owner is merely waggling a tiller according to instructions coming from pros, is the owner's input in the winning process so small that they no longer deserve the normal acclamation of a champion?
If an owner just sat on the rail while the paid manager ran the show and the pros sailed the boat, would the owner deserve acclamation for doing nothing but funding the show? If not, then isn't he only different in a small degree to the owner who drives but pays for everything else?
How many other sports and games allow such use of pros? I know car racing and polo do, but so many others? Would Rich Average Joe get kudos among chess players if they hired a grandmaster to sit next to them and whisper a few hints every move?
I completely understand the desire of a hot amateur sailor to get the boat feeling at its best by hiring pros, and as you say in big boats etc it's valid just because of the logistics and complexity. But it's also an inherent part of sport (or other activities like playing music) that you only get out what you put in. If a former champ is not going to put the hard yards into maintaining their sailing skill, it's a choice they make for themselves.
With respect to the ex-Snipe champ etc (and I mean that honestly, because I do understand the desire to get back to feeling like you're sailing as you used to) it does sound a bit like a former pro cyclist who hires a bunch of current pros to sit in front of him so that he can ride their slipstream, feel as good as he did in the glory days, and then take a win. If you did that in bike racing around here I think you'd get very little respect out of it, because the ethos of sport is that you win by YOUR efforts, and not the efforts of people you pay. Winning by one's own efforts is the essence of sport, isn't it?
While I'm not much in favour of pros in general, they do have benefits and a place, but like many it seems to me that they are moving to far down into the boats that should be affordable enough for the middle class, and that's not a good thing for the sport.
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Panoramix
Super Anarchist
Exactly...
Here in the 90s (especially before the tour de France went down the professionalisation pit when they changed to the Mumm 30), it was very common to end up sailing against top pros. It was good for the sport and in the amateur crews there were people who became good enough to be today's stars. As an "impoverished" student who got the money to race by begging around sponsorship and hoping on random boats, you didn't get a chance to win against these guys but the racing was great fun and you knew what you were actually worth.
The racing can't be only about winning, if not in a fleet of 50, there are 49 losers... It is mostly about becoming a sharper sailor, if you keep at it long enough, you get better and one day you end up winning a leg because you saw something the pros didn't (or took a risk they didn't want to take as they were fighting for the overall ranking), it feels magic !!!
Jethrow
Super Anarchist
so I will just start another half dozen thread all about the same thing until they meet the same fate...
knh555
Anarchist
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Just got the record, Will Graves is not a Snipe World Champion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_Hub_E._Isaacks_and_O'Leary_Trophies
Swimsailor
Super Anarchist
What if the pro is a local? What if the pro owned a shitty boat and was a supporter of the class before becoming a pro? What if the pro has never been paid to race and is only a pro because he decided to make some sails?
