Keep Your Pros on the Dock
- Thread starter BrightAyes
- Start date
Rum Runner
Rum Runner
They seem to be the same in my experience. The standard whine is, "If you only bought another new sail."
Cat 1 Gardener
New member
Seems like you should just get faster...
knh555
Anarchist
- 626
- 594
Or enjoy the sailing you're already doing. Most boats lose most races. If winning is the only reason you're out there, you're doing it wrong. IMHO.
fufkin
Super Anarchist
Another way to look at it, is that pros(most of them,at least, in any sport), understand losing better than amateurs.
Because they are racing x amount of weeks a year, they will lose more than most amateurs.
One of the keys to longevity, improvement, and enjoyment in any sport, pro or amateur, is learning how to process losing and to put it all into perspective.
Because they are racing x amount of weeks a year, they will lose more than most amateurs.
One of the keys to longevity, improvement, and enjoyment in any sport, pro or amateur, is learning how to process losing and to put it all into perspective.
Speaking as an average average Joe who sails a J70, he doesn't give a crap.
Every regatta I go to my performance will depend on who i have to crew for me (and so far I havent sailed with any pro crew) I know how big a difference it makes having skilled crew aboard, and I know my boats performance vs other boars will depend on who I have on board for that weekend as will the others Im racing against. So if one of my competitors picks up a pro good for them, they have taken themself out of the Corinthian category, and I'm still more interested in how I'm doing against the top boats.
The main thing that will boost a boat up the fleet is more racing, if my time and cash budget allowed it I would be getting down to Florida for the winter. But the time commitment to do that is more than I can manage.
My experience in the J70 fleet is that sailors like it when a boat improves, because that makes the competition better. My passion for the sport comes from making my boat go faster and my crew working better as a team, it doesn't get ruined by someone else making an improvement in their own sailing.
It's great if you don't mind racing against pros, but there's plenty of evidence (across nations and eras) that most AAJs don't like it and therefore numbers drop.
Feel free to post a link to the "evidence".
TUBBY
Super Anarchist
If sailing against the "pros" really upsets you that much, get yourself into a position, (yeah it takes work), where you are sailing WITH, them VERY few boats are ALL pro so there are spots there for AAJs who are driven to improve to that level. And let me tell you nothing improves your sailing like racing with better sailors, and no they don't have to be pro! Just work your way up the fleet learning as you go.
I started out as a kid on a regional river sailing mid fleet, (on a good day), on dinghy & skiffs.
When the opportunity came to race on bigger boats I jumped at, (my nick name might give some hint as to why), and targeted the biggest and best boats I could get on and worked hard to stay there.
40 years later I have done 25 Sydney Hobarts won Line Honours, Overall, and division 4 or 5 times.
NEVER been paid to do a Hobart occasionally had expenses covered. But I have delivered the boat to or from the race over 20 times usually as skipper, and never even considered asking to be paid to deliver a boat I raced on. Yes most of these races have been corinthian but a few have been Pro-AM.
The biggest difference in sailing with "pros" and really good amateurs is their attitude, always thinking about what is happening and how to make it better and being ready to really work hard when required to get things done, no taking half an hour to get on watch or needing 3 calls to grind a winch.
I started out as a kid on a regional river sailing mid fleet, (on a good day), on dinghy & skiffs.
When the opportunity came to race on bigger boats I jumped at, (my nick name might give some hint as to why), and targeted the biggest and best boats I could get on and worked hard to stay there.
40 years later I have done 25 Sydney Hobarts won Line Honours, Overall, and division 4 or 5 times.
NEVER been paid to do a Hobart occasionally had expenses covered. But I have delivered the boat to or from the race over 20 times usually as skipper, and never even considered asking to be paid to deliver a boat I raced on. Yes most of these races have been corinthian but a few have been Pro-AM.
The biggest difference in sailing with "pros" and really good amateurs is their attitude, always thinking about what is happening and how to make it better and being ready to really work hard when required to get things done, no taking half an hour to get on watch or needing 3 calls to grind a winch.
Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
Eloquently and precisely put, from a person who sails as an amateur in a class that actively allows pros.
Put another way, many of us enjoy sailing in a class where the people are the deciding factor , not the boat.
Not everyone has access to the same network of crew and experience that John has. If an owner and his crew feel that adding a pro to the mix for a couple of regattas takes them up the learning curve and makes for an enjoyable experience, then John celebrates that.
I confess that the deal that perplexes me from time to time is the owner that hires a mediocre professional sailor to yell, scream and insult them for 6 hours. From afar, that looks like a really miserable experience to me......but then Ive never understood sado-bondage either
Mambo Kings
Super Anarchist
Ive met pro's who work as hard as the really good amateurs. But the passionate amateur does bring something special.....its not just a job for them. Sounds like you fit that category.
FIFY.
TUBBY
Super Anarchist
Yep, got interrupted, and buggered up that sentence.
Was meant to read that this was a trait of Good amateurs and (good) Pros!
Was meant to read that this was a trait of Good amateurs and (good) Pros!
I'm on holiday and away from my documentary sources, but while it's raining here I'll give some evidence and show how long and widespread complaints have been ;
Owners who pay extra for racing crews "do a great deal of harm to the sport in general, for by thus increasing the cost of racing they may compel others not so favoured by forturne to retire from the field....the Royal Thames Yacht Club...convened a meeting of owners, and a number of racing yachtsmen came to an agreement to pay winning money on a fixed scale"; Tatler, May 16 1906. So the issue of paying crew was significant enough for one of the biggest clubs of the day to have a formal meeting of owners about it.
This is probably the same meeting the Field wrote about in. "No matter how wealthy an owner may be, he should strenously avoid paying extravagant sums for the men, because it not only spoils the market for other men of moderate means, but...the men also". The Field, Oct 29, 1904
"Another evil attendant upon the practise of paying losing money is that it tends to diminish the entries.....now, however (because of paying pro crew) my friends and I are deprived of the pleasure of racing." The Field, Jan 5, 1878
"Solent owners cannot shut their eyes to the fact that men with long purses may, through ignorance, over-pay the small boat hands and so spoil thre market for the majority". If excess crew payments were reduced "we feel sure that so soon as they are removed the number of competitors in the Solent classes will begin to increase". The Field, Jan 12 1901.
According to the outstanding history of NZ Sailing, Southern Breezes, several Auckland classes fell apart because the Bailey and Logan boatbuilder "pros" dominated.
More recently, Seahorse reported in the '80s that the cost of pros at the level rating world championships was seen to be such an issue that the ORC put several class' worlds on at the same time, so there were more owners looking for pros than vice versa. Seahorse reported that the measure failed because most of the pros ended up moving into one class each year and making that the prestige event for the year and causing the others to be seen as second rate.
Before you complain about the fact that I haven't got links and that I haven't got more evidence, note that I have provided above more documentary evidence than anyone else has provided in this thread. I can't provide more because I'm hundreds of miles away from my library.
I also started offshore racing in 1979, did my first short overnight race (edit - as an owner, on a copy of the Santana 20) a couple of years later, spent over a decade in the industry, and have heard the complaint from many other owners. By the way, I've been classed as a pro myself and have done the occasional race with pros like Grant Simmer etc. I don't personally have to worry about pros since I don't bother to race my offshore boat seriously because of the cost and the huge drop in fleet numbers; I race singlehanded ODs instead. It's interesting to note that ex-pros don't tend to rise above mid fleet in such classes.
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Hu Man Manson
New member
- 18
- 7
mixed feelings on this one.
Main thing “pros“ (see note) do is jump start your program, since one or two pros can often line up half a dozen of their buddies, who are generally competent. And if some of those guys suck or are obnoxious, you just give the word to your paid guy and their gone, you don’t have to deal with them. Without this, it’s really tough for a guy in his 50s-60s to line up enough decent racers to start a new 40ft+ program, most of your friends are just too old to be competitive.
That said, we get more enjoyment out of our amateur team… and are consistently top 3rd of the fleet with some wins each year, but it’s taken 5 years to get there. There’s been times when when a (good) pro would have been much less costly than the damage we had when sailing short handed. Because you know, sometimes your friends have lives outside of racing…
Here’s the other thing… there’s only so many VERY GOOD amateurs, and then tend to flock to the “best” boats… which often have one or two pros on board. So the rich get richer and that pisses everyone else off.
And let’s be honest, there’s a lot of boat owners who are old assholes who yell at people, refuse to take tactical advise, and harass their female sailors. Their attitude makes it tough to attract and retain younger, high performers, so they’re stuck in mid fleet, unless they pay for talent.
*note. This word “pro” is thrown around a lot. Some 90%+ of Cat 3 “pros” are really semi-pros. They make their living in the marine industry (selling sails, rigging, boat broker, jr coach etc….) and supplement it with some paid racing gigs. It’s not really fair to impose the same restrictions on them as the Volvo ocean sailors, especially the since most of them aren’t even getting paid for club racing, a lot of the time.
Main thing “pros“ (see note) do is jump start your program, since one or two pros can often line up half a dozen of their buddies, who are generally competent. And if some of those guys suck or are obnoxious, you just give the word to your paid guy and their gone, you don’t have to deal with them. Without this, it’s really tough for a guy in his 50s-60s to line up enough decent racers to start a new 40ft+ program, most of your friends are just too old to be competitive.
That said, we get more enjoyment out of our amateur team… and are consistently top 3rd of the fleet with some wins each year, but it’s taken 5 years to get there. There’s been times when when a (good) pro would have been much less costly than the damage we had when sailing short handed. Because you know, sometimes your friends have lives outside of racing…
Here’s the other thing… there’s only so many VERY GOOD amateurs, and then tend to flock to the “best” boats… which often have one or two pros on board. So the rich get richer and that pisses everyone else off.
And let’s be honest, there’s a lot of boat owners who are old assholes who yell at people, refuse to take tactical advise, and harass their female sailors. Their attitude makes it tough to attract and retain younger, high performers, so they’re stuck in mid fleet, unless they pay for talent.
*note. This word “pro” is thrown around a lot. Some 90%+ of Cat 3 “pros” are really semi-pros. They make their living in the marine industry (selling sails, rigging, boat broker, jr coach etc….) and supplement it with some paid racing gigs. It’s not really fair to impose the same restrictions on them as the Volvo ocean sailors, especially the since most of them aren’t even getting paid for club racing, a lot of the time.
knh555
Anarchist
- 626
- 594
So helps me understand your point of view, but to me many of the examples are a bit odd.
The first set of stuff circa 1900 was about how much (or little) to pay crew, not about whether to pay them. I doubt it crossed the minds of the gentlemen owners of Royal Thames that they might ask one of their friends to do the work of 'the men'. I'm also fascinatined by what 'losing money' was and how and why it was paid. so would love to know what was elided by the ellipsis in that example.
The seahorse example from the '80's implies that the attendance at major regattas diminished when the ORC tried to limit pros because the classes with no pros attending were considered less prestigious, or am I reading that wrong?
wonderful. when you get a moment, perhaps you could update your post with info from say, the last half-century?
Marty Gingras
Mid-range Anarchist
Sure...I hear that phrase used for the first time now that I'm retired from public policy (natural resources) work!
Just to edit my own post - I meant to say I did my first overnight race as owner a couple of years after starting ocean racing on OPBs in 1979, when I had a copy of a Santana 20.
When you get a moment, could you start having an adult conversation instead of being snarky and hypocritically demanding evidence while providing none yourself?
I specifically and clearly said that the stuff I just posted was there to show how long pros had been considered to be a problem. Given one of the points I was making was how long the issue had been recognised, whining about the fact that I used historical posts is weird.
Bullshit. I have shown plenty of real data on many occasions, and my recent post shows how far and deep my data and analysis go, but you just ignore the reality of our sport and make toxic comments.
When you get a moment, could you start having an adult conversation instead of being snarky and hypocritically demanding evidence while providing none yourself?
I specifically and clearly said that the stuff I just posted was there to show how long pros had been considered to be a problem. Given one of the points I was making was how long the issue had been recognised, whining about the fact that I used historical posts is weird.
Bullshit. I have shown plenty of real data on many occasions, and my recent post shows how far and deep my data and analysis go, but you just ignore the reality of our sport and make toxic comments.
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